Physical strength in Tai Ji

[pete]

I practice both Kenpo and Taijiquan, and appreciate the martial and non-martial aspects of both

Randy, what style of Kenpo do you practice? have you been able to use concepts from one to improve your execution of the other? I practice both arts as well and am constantly applying Tai Chi principles to improve my Kenpo in terms of posture and balance, and to maximize technique application.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Originally posted by pete
Randy, what style of Kenpo do you practice? have you been able to use concepts from one to improve your execution of the other? I practice both arts as well and am constantly applying Tai Chi principles to improve my Kenpo in terms of posture and balance, and to maximize technique application.

Pete,
I practice Chinese Kenpo. I originally took up Taijiquan in order to help rehab a shoulder injury. Since then, I have come to enjoy Taijiquan for its own sake (rather than just a means to get back to Kenpo). I would say that the main thing which I have gained from Taiji as relates to my Kenpo practice is greater awareness. Not of my surroundings, but of my internal environment. I am more aware of my balance, body alignment, emptyness and fullness, and the importance of the kua in power generation. I realize that all of these are already present in Kenpo, but my Taiji practice has underscored their importance in ways that might not have been apparant to me otherwise.
On the flip side, my Kenpo habits tend to get in the way of my Taijiquan. Even moving slowly, I tend to unconsciously put some "pop" on my techniques (I try to claim I'm practicing fajin, but fortunately my instructor has a good sense of when I'm BS-ing). I also have a habit of going into a cat stance in places where I should go into a seven stars (or heel) stance. On the other hand, my Kenpo background lets me see applications to the Taijiquan techniques which my instructor hadn't considered.
Thanks for asking, and good luck in your practice.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Yes, I am stirring the pot. Am I trolling? Many will say so.

What is my motivation? a dose of reality. This thread asked a silly hypothetical question about how a hypothetical fight would go. Think about the origninal quesiton for a moment. I think serious TC people should be more offended by the silliness of the question than by the obnoxiousness of my answser.

How would I feel if someone made fun of my style (Kenpo and a little BJJ, Aiki-JJ, Shotokan, Escrima)? I would feel OK. I would be OK because I think every system has its inherent strengths and weaknesses and we need to be realistic about what those are. Kenpo has weaknesses (see a majority of my posts here) and so does every other style I've practiced. Remember, no one is perfect and styles are created by people.

Tai Chi is an excellent exercise program based on martial technique. But, if you think TC training is fight oriented, then you are doing a rare form of TC that most people have never seen. Recognize exactly what it is you are doing. Be proud of your learning and achievement. But don't let your training give you a false sense of security or pride.

 

[7starmantis]

I can accept that, except that you said serious TC people should be more offended by the question than your obnoxious answer. As a martial artist in general, I'm never offended by any serious question, regardless of how stupid you or anyone else might think it is. It is important to help those who ask questions like that understand the truth, not be obnoxious towards them and turn them away from good training.

I agree with you that most Taiji is practiced outside of the fighting application. I've also seen 65 year old men in china who I couldn't touch with all my "realistic" full contact fighting I've done. So, I agree with you that most people have never seen true Taiji, but that doesn't mean everyone who practices taiji does so in ignorance of the fighting applications of it. The fundamentals in Taiji are the basis for many MA themselves.

7sm

 

[Taiji fan]

most questions on message boards are simply a method of provoking discussion......to some they may appear silly, but they get people analysing and discussion and thats fine by me.

Tai Chi is an excellent exercise program based on martial technique. But, if you think TC training is fight oriented, then you are doing a rare form of TC that most people have never seen.

sorry but I have to jump in here......actually taijiquan is a martial art, which has had numerous names such as cotton fist boxing....due to the nature of the training, the attention to body mechanics etc it just so happens to also be a good method of strengthening the body and improving various aspects of health. If you have not seen taijiquan applied then I am afraid you are seriously missing out....and while there are many tai cheeee dance classes, there are still plenty of traditional Taijiquan classes teaching the full curriculum.

Recognize exactly what it is you are doing. Be proud of your learning and achievement. But don't let your training give you a false sense of security or pride.

that goes for every martial art.

 

[7starmantis]

I did some push hands this weekend, and I have to tell you, Tai Chi is deffinatly a martial art.
I would risk fire attacks by saying Tai Chi is the ultimate martial art. Its principles are used in so many martial arts, its at the heart of all self defense.

7sm

 

[Taiji fan]

I would risk fire attacks by saying Tai Chi is the ultimate martial art. Its principles are used in so many martial arts, its at the heart of all self defense.

:flame: ha ha only kidding...they don't call it the great ultimate for nothing.

 

[dane123]

This thread is interesting, especially how the subject has changed from the original question regarding strength in Tai Chi to defending one's choice of martial art. That is definitely not the martial way.

Regarding the original question, equal skill would be based on how and why you practice Tai Chi. You can practice it for health, meditative movement, fun, or to advance to the combat stage of Tai Chi training--or a bit of all. The hypothetical situation would probably have to be 2 people who have equal skill in push hands and Tai Chi applications; although, "skill" is very subjective and depends on many factors. Too many to answer this question with one simple answer.

In reference to the comment regarding Tai Chi having nothing to do with combat is inaccurate. All forms of Tai Chi have applications (sometimes several) for each move. The study of applications depends on the stylist's goals and reason for studying Tai Chi. Tai Chi also has many weapons forms. Originally the weapons forms were not designed just for practice but for fighting, combat, defense, or however you wish to describe their use. Recently I have read that Tai Chi is being studied as to how Tai Chi stylists become "stronger" or more affective as they grow older while external martial artists tend to lose some strength as they grow older.

The history of Tai Chi is fascinationg, especially regarding it's influence on all forms of external martial arts and a person's reason for study. I would suggest that anyone who is not familiar with this art talk to a Tai Chi stylist or read something about it. I also commend the Kenpo artist for studying Tai Chi. There are several external martial artists who study with me and say that Tai Chi has helped the immensely. Sorry for the long post, but I felt that some clarification was important.

 

[theneuhauser]

quote:There are several external martial artists who study with me and say that Tai Chi has helped the immensely.




one major mistake is to assume that taiji is "internal" while other styles might be "less internal" or "external" or soft or hard or whatever you want to call them. the idea of the internal martial arts is a western invention to help simplify some of the more intricate differences between certain arts.

the goal of taiji is the same as all other martial arts, mastery of yourself and your environment.

 

[grappling_mandala]

I grapple all the time for the last 10 years! I LOVE GRAPPLING! I think it lets us practice being 'neutral' and learn how to create diviations in good posture and then submissions just pop up everywhere!!! woohoo!

I practice standing forms really slow to understand mechanics. Just like I do grappling drills/subs/whatever. I practice them fast to understand velocity and momentum physics. Every 'form' has it's place. In all ranges!

Every forms function yeilds results when put inside the forms 'agreement box'. With something like pushhands lets relate what it exercises to a more 'flexible' agreement... like Fighting.

Even in the full context of moving and alternating footwork, transitionaing push hands into 'free form' pushhands, etc... it isn't 'fighting' that your doing. Your working together to polish skill. It's like a mirror, but all range fighting is different.

Push hands is not fighting, pushhands traces some effective routes that the hips use WHILE fighting, or moving in general, but Push hands is not fighting.

Fighting maybe CLOSER to Lop Sao or Sticky Hands of wing chun, but that is still not fighting.

Ultimately we all train inside a bubble of security until we get in the trench with someone we trust to drop some bombs and we can see what works and what doesn't. If I can shrink the mechanics of push hands into an armdrag, or extend it into a jab hook and cross combo... i think taiji must be good for something... cuz I know boxing isn't for everyone.

Two guys of high skill I think could tell who would win simply by touching hands though! I stick to that. But I think every tai ji guy should have a grappler pick up a single and tree top him a couple times just for good measure... but hey, that's me. <wink>

-Dave in Oregon

 

[grappling_mandala]

PS- Equal high level skill the smaller guy has less mass presenting a small center of gravity AND the bigger guy won't be able to use his 'weight' against that center as it ill be equally used against him.

But would the little guy win? Everyone wants the little guy to win... might be a draw I don't know...

Dave

 

[chee]

...but at a high skill level, they are equal, so they both understand being rooted and disolving.
But two of high skill would probably not participate in a fight to see who would win.

7sm

I agree with this completely. However, I feel that (at the higher skill level) the smaller opponent has the advantage if the larger opponent is much larger than he. I feel the smaller one would have more speed and if he can gain an advantage for only one moment, he could use the redirected energy from the larger, heavier guy using it against himself so it would be more of an impact combined with his own. Also I feel it's harder to fight someone much smaller than yourself. That is, if both is of equal, higher skill.

Then again, two highly skilled Taiji master would just look at each other - probably waiting for the other to move first. Afterall it's a defensive art, right? So, both would never have fought at all!

 

[mfjkd]

What about him ? :uhyeah:

 

[vampyre_rat]

If you use physical (li) strength to win then you are not using taiji.

As the level of skill increases, physical factors (weight, strength, speed, etc) become less and less important. As such the two people of high level ability would probably come to a standstill.

I also think that there is a confusion about taiji being a yin/defensive art.

It is a yin-yang art. It balances the two harmoneously, hence the name. This means that a taiji player could initialise the attack.

What's with the guy on the tracks? Does he practice taiji? Is he going to attack the train?

 

[chee]

Yes, I agree. But actually I believe most post here regard "attack" as in an unprovoked aggression. When a negative energy is coming at you and you redirect that energy and send it back at them. That is an attack by you.

 

[vampyre_rat]

There are times when the nature of the incoming force is non-physical, it could be a threat to your loved ones or your life and you have to get mean. Then you'd start the confrontation. Probably by initiating a feint to draw the opponent out so that you can read their physical reactions.

But it is true that if the two 'tai chi masters' squared off against each other and they had both cultivated their spirit as well as their skill, then they'd agree not to fight and go and have a nice cup of tea and discuss the weather!