Pankration

LoneRider

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I'm curious about Pankration or MMA as a fighting style in the near future. I've been in various martial arts (almost all striking related, I currently practice Wing Chun in a style closest to Yip Man's original teachings (2.5 years of practice) and am thinking of taking up Muay Thai in another year or so, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu about three years after that point in order to work on my ground game) for several years (I did Western Boxing for two years at a military school). After I've had experience in both MT and BJJ I intend to start MMA or Pankration. I understand the two are fairly similar fighting styles, but I'm curious as to the distinction.

How would I distinguish a true Pankration gym from one that is in name only?

Regards,

Lone Rider
 

Paul-M

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Pankration is the name for a Greek fighting tournament that featured in the original olympics. Any martial art that calls itself Pankration is most likely MMA using traditional Greek training techniques.
 

lklawson

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How would I distinguish a true Pankration gym from one that is in name only?
That really depends on who you talk to and if they have an ax to grind.

In general, Pankration died out a long, long time ago (though there are some claims for which I cannot speak to their veracity that some practitioners survived in remote areas of Greece). However, starting in the 70's (IIRC), there began an effort to recreate the style. Research has included everything from modern analogs to detailed examination of ancient Greek records and artwork representing Greek fighting.

The results are what Pankration researchers believe are the closest that they can reasonably come to both the training methods and the original rule sets (as modified for modern safety) as they can reasonably come.

How you would find a "real" Pankration gym, well, look to the lineage. Most modern Pankration traces back to a relatively small set of original researchers. If the gym doesn't have ties to them in some way then it's probably just using the name.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

lklawson

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Pankration is the name for a Greek fighting tournament that featured in the original olympics.
IIRC, the best evidence is that Pankration was the name of a sport that existed for some time before it was rolled into the Olympics.

Any martial art that calls itself Pankration is most likely MMA using traditional Greek training techniques.
Don't tell that to Arvanitis. He's like to take exception to the notion.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Paul-M

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Sorry, I was in no way claiming to know a lot about Pankration, that's just what it appears to be from what I've seen, have you seen the Pankration episode of Human Weapon ?
 

lklawson

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Sorry, I was in no way claiming to know a lot about Pankration,
Nor I.

that's just what it appears to be from what I've seen, have you seen the Pankration episode of Human Weapon ?
Yeah, I've seen it. The rule sets were different from MMA on some important points.

I found Human Weapon to be very entertaining though sometimes with lapses (not unforgivable, mind you). I was both pleased and irritated at the Savate episode, for instance.

I have a few acquaintances who are into Pankration (at least from a hoplogical perspective) and have written some good material.

http://historical-pankration.com/article-3.html

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/historical-pankration-project/

Pankration ain't my cup-o-tea however, while comparable in many ways to modern MMA, there are some significant divergences as well. (To be honest, modern MMA ain't my cup-o-tea either but I rather enjoy watching matches - Urijah Faber is currently my favorite fighter - I admit I'm a fan-boy when it comes to Faber.)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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LoneRider

LoneRider

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Sorry, I was in no way claiming to know a lot about Pankration, that's just what it appears to be from what I've seen, have you seen the Pankration episode of Human Weapon ?

I've seen that episode of Human Weapon and in fact that's what drove my query regarding Pankration versus MMA. I'm interested in going into one of those disciplines after I've gained solid bases in both striking (thru Wing Chun (currently practicing) and Muay Thai(considering taking up in a year or so)) and groundwork/grappling (BJJ). I'd likely be a good striker/sprawl and brawler (most of my MA experience has been striking based), but I'd like to have a decent ground game before I try MMA/Pankration (in about seven years or so at the age of 31).

I've had a strikers background in MA so far (2 years of western boxing at university, TaeKwonDo for three years as a teenager, and currently 2.5 years of Wing Chun) and looking to go into a good base, a combo of MT and BJJ for solid striking and ground games. Any thoughts?


Nor I.


Yeah, I've seen it. The rule sets were different from MMA on some important points.

I found Human Weapon to be very entertaining though sometimes with lapses (not unforgivable, mind you). I was both pleased and irritated at the Savate episode, for instance.

I have a few acquaintances who are into Pankration (at least from a hoplogical perspective) and have written some good material.

http://historical-pankration.com/article-3.html

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/historical-pankration-project/

Pankration ain't my cup-o-tea however, while comparable in many ways to modern MMA, there are some significant divergences as well. (To be honest, modern MMA ain't my cup-o-tea either but I rather enjoy watching matches - Urijah Faber is currently my favorite fighter - I admit I'm a fan-boy when it comes to Faber.)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'd always liked Human Weapon. I've seen clips of Fight Quest but never got around to watching it yet. One of the guys at my school, Tim, who's a black sash at my Wing Chun school is a huge Fight Quest fanatic.

Thanks for the inputs, both of you. I've actually bought Jim Arvanitis' book, the update to his 1972 Pankration book, on Amazon.com and it'll be on it's way soon. (Though I tend to be wary of learning martial arts from books as opposed to training at a dojo, with a trainer, or even a training partner).

Regards,

LoneRider
 

lklawson

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I've actually bought Jim Arvanitis' book, the update to his 1972 Pankration book, on Amazon.com and it'll be on it's way soon. (Though I tend to be wary of learning martial arts from books as opposed to training at a dojo, with a trainer, or even a training partner).
Good luck.

What you might be able to do, if you can't find a school near by is this. Find a school within weekend driving distance and some local sparring partners. Then you can go out to the school every month or two for direction and training and then bring it home and practice it with your partners. It's not ideal but it will help keep you on the right track.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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LoneRider

LoneRider

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Would about seven years of solidifying my striking and groundwork bases (Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, about 3.5 years per discipline) before taking up a hybrid fighting style such as Pankration be a good idea. I'd like to sanity check this with any MMA/Pankratiast types, does anyone know who's best to contact regarding this?
 

Imminent

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Pankration has two modern versions the military and the athletic and two subdivisions in each ano standing and kato ground. The most common incarnation is what is called Pankration Athlima, the athletics version, able to be used in sport applications like MMA etc. The truest form to the original, is Traditional Military Spartan Pankration. Arvenitis is the Father of modern Pankration and has an exceptional background but he trains from what I have seen and talked to people who studied under him in the athlema primarily. The TMSP, is really underground, and I have only found one TMSP instructor who had ties to the military and he was no longer teaching to anyone but family. I was lucky enough to be accepted by his nephew to train with him and took many beatings (I mean trips to ER, a love of Aleve and purple skin color on most of the places he taught me about in any given session) before earning an Full or Chief Instructor depending on how the Greek is translated in TSMP. It is really seen in any MA you find and most combatives use the principles found there. When I was getting certified under Sifu Vunak in his JKD based stuff there was so much that was of the TMSP mindset and the way Vu teaches he has so much that takes the ancient and improves its form in only a way he could. All in all, go with Arvenitis if you are looking for a competitive sport version as he will no doubt side teach the traditional stuff to some of his students since his wealth of knowledge is so vast. If you want a more direct combatives style find one of Vu's guys or a pure combatives group.
 

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