Obama and Iran: The Man Who Didn't Bluff

billc

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As a good opening gesture, to show we mean them no harm, and to alleviate all of their fears, why don't we just give them all of our nuclear weapons. They won't need to build their own then, we will have disarmed, the way so many want us to over here, and they can just develop nuclear power for energy. Everything will be just great then.
 

john2054

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I think that that's foolhardy talk at the best! Billchihak. Who knows what Iran would do with a new fully operational arsenal of nuclear armament. I think you can say goodbye to Israel for a start! No a much better idea is to continue down the route of negotiations. There is no reason to believe that the Muslims of the middle East are endemic liars, and when they say that they are not building a nuclear weapons capacity, I think it may be worth giving them the benefit of the doubt for a change. Just because you perchance would lie about nuclear capacities, does not mean that they will. They are after all Muslims, and does it not say in the Quran thou shall not lie? Food for thought.
 

billc

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You arent supposed to lie to muslims...everybody else, you can lie to all day long. You can also lie to further the cause of spreading or defending Islam. If I am incorrect on this, please let me know. The same goes for religion of peace, it is a religion of peace for muslims...everybody else better watch out...


You do realize that Iran is one of the biggest exporters of terrorism around the world? They provide weapons, money and training to terrorists? That might be some of the reason people are reluctant to "take their word," on the issue of nuclear weapons...
 
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WC_lun

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I don't think we should take thier word for anything. I also don't think it is a situation where we shoot now or they have a nuke. If it was I'd be all in for taking out thier ability to do so. If the information that has been released by our government, Israel's government, and the media is at all accurate, we have some time. Warfare without the need just does not set right with me. Destroying property and lives in Iran is war. Let us not do that until/unless absolutely neccesary.
 

72ronin

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Isnt Russia the one to help Iran gain Nuclear energy, did Putin back out or something, i didnt think so?
If Russia provides Iran the means for Nuclear energy, are you guys seriously happy with the civilian losses (and longterm health effects) that will occur due to damaging Nuclear energy facilities?

India, Pakistan etc all have Nuclear weapons, Pakistan also has a bad rep for harbouring etc terrorists does it not?

Has it crossed anyones mind yet that Iraq couldnt put a dent in Iran when it attacked, Iran is absolutely no pushover. Let alone the increasing partnership it has with Russia.
Iran already has the potential arms to absolutely level Israel, right now, without nuclear. How many Nukes Israel got?
The evidence, if that means anything, is that Iran desires Nuclear energy. Thats why Putin has talked about giving it to them.
Besides, if you were Iran, why would you launch against Israel absolutely ensuring the total destruction of your country and people possibly even being wiped from the face of the earth forever? You may aswell commit suicide right now, its totaly illogical. Absolute rubbish.

Is the U.S.S Liberty forgotten that easily by Americans? What its been written in the history books as a terrible mix up has it pfff
If one wants to play world watchdog then they better pop israel on their list of things to do, apparently they are breaking International law/human rights as we speak, no? oh well, get back to following the propaganda machine but one thing, at least make sure you are following your own countries propaganda/intelligence this time..
 

Bill Mattocks

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Has it crossed anyones mind yet that Iraq couldnt put a dent in Iran when it attacked, Iran is absolutely no pushover.

A) Iraq was a pushover, and so is Iran compared to US military. We defeated the Iraqi military in a matter of days.
B) In any case, I don't propose invading Iran or fighting their military. Just bombing the crap out of their nuclear installations.

Let alone the increasing partnership it has with Russia.

Russia is not going to defend Iran militarily if we bomb it.

Iran already has the potential arms to absolutely level Israel, right now, without nuclear.

Ah, no. Not even close.

How many Nukes Israel got?

No one will say. Suffice to say they are acknowledged by most to be a nuclear-armed nation.

The evidence, if that means anything, is that Iran desires Nuclear energy.

No, that's not what the evidence shows. Read Elder's response in this thread; he's an expert on such matters. He may disagree that Iran is currently building a nuclear device, but even he says what they are doing is, if intended only for peaceful nuclear energy production, a very odd way to go about it.

Thats why Putin has talked about giving it to them.

Putin is a criminal mobster.

Besides, if you were Iran, why would you launch against Israel absolutely ensuring the total destruction of your country and people possibly even being wiped from the face of the earth forever? You may aswell commit suicide right now, its totaly illogical. Absolute rubbish.

Religion makes people do stupid things, like blow themselves up in planes to hurt America. Not rubbish at all. And they've repeatedly threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. So it's not rubbish.

Is the U.S.S Liberty forgotten that easily by Americans? What its been written in the history books as a terrible mix up has it pfff
If one wants to play world watchdog then they better pop israel on their list of things to do, apparently they are breaking International law/human rights as we speak, no? oh well, get back to following the propaganda machine but one thing, at least make sure you are following your own countries propaganda/intelligence this time..

Regardless of your opinion on Israel, you can be certain that the US will not abandon it, and Iran will not obtain nuclear weapons. Sorry if that chafes your shorts, but that's life.
 

72ronin

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You mean to say that Iran will not obtain Nuclear "energy", and that many civilians will die and generations will suffer the effects of radiation, because we were fed some crap about the whole country being suicidal and watering at the mouth to Nuke Israel.

Who else has had their Nuclear energy facilities hopes bombed over there? Egypt or was it Libya?
So all of a sudden all these countries went nuts did they, all of them want to level israel now do they. Rubbish.
Any one of them could have waged biological warfare whenever they wanted to against their supposed enemy, and there is not a damn thing anyone could have done about it, let alone be able to pinpoint its origin. So religious fanatacism, considering its implication, is not on the table.

You believe so far that, Iran states it wants to level Israel. Next, it announces it is moving to go Nuclear energy (and that which it apparently implies, weapons).
So you basicaly think Iran is tired of running its own country, peoples and culture etc and wishes to basicaly commit suicide.. See anything wrong with that picture?
 

Bill Mattocks

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You mean to say that Iran will not obtain Nuclear "energy", and that many civilians will die and generations will suffer the effects of radiation, because we were fed some crap about the whole country being suicidal and watering at the mouth to Nuke Israel.

No, I meant what I said.

Who else has had their Nuclear energy facilities hopes bombed over there? Egypt or was it Libya?

Syria and Iraq, as far as I know. Both bombed by Israel, presumably.

So all of a sudden all these countries went nuts did they, all of them want to level israel now do they. Rubbish.
Any one of them could have waged biological warfare whenever they wanted to against their supposed enemy, and there is not a damn thing anyone could have done about it, let alone be able to pinpoint its origin. So religious fanatacism, considering its implication, is not on the table.

A convenient dismissal, but it's not true. Religious fanaticism is always on the table. Biological warfare will not give Iran what it wants, which is the cooperation of all Islamic states against a common foe.

You believe so far that, Iran states it wants to level Israel. Next, it announces it is moving to go Nuclear energy (and that which it apparently implies, weapons).

As noted by people who actually understand such things, the manner in which Iran is going about nuclear enrichment is far more conducive to creating weapons than nuclear power. Likewise, Iran has been offered free nuclear reactors for power built for them in Iran by Western nations, if they will forgo their own nuclear research, which has been refused. The obvious conclusion is it not the electricity they are after.

So you basicaly think Iran is tired of running its own country, peoples and culture etc and wishes to basicaly commit suicide.. See anything wrong with that picture?

No, I do not think Iran is suicidal. I think Iran is nearly isolated in the Muslim world of the Middle East. They have few friends, but they'd like to have more. To that end, if they can provoke a war with Israel, especially if they can be seen in the defensive mode instead of offensive, they hope that other Islamic nations will come to their aid, as they share a common foe, Israel. That is what I believe.
 

Makalakumu

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A) Iraq was a pushover, and so is Iran compared to US military. We defeated the Iraqi military in a matter of days.

To be fair, the US prepped the way with a highway of dollars. We paid Revolutionary Guard officers to stand down and stay home. It wasn't a real test of arms between the two armies. I'm not saying that the US wouldn't have prevailed, it would have been a lot harder if the Iraqi military had remained loyal to Saddam.

I'm not so sure the same thing is going to happen in Iran. It seems that the harder we push, the more people reflexively support the regime.

B) In any case, I don't propose invading Iran or fighting their military. Just bombing the crap out of their nuclear installations.

That's going to lead to regime change and I believe that is the ultimate goal anyway. Bombing the nuclear installations opens the door for further escalation into the real policy.
 

Bill Mattocks

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To be fair, the US prepped the way with a highway of dollars. We paid Revolutionary Guard officers to stand down and stay home. It wasn't a real test of arms between the two armies. I'm not saying that the US wouldn't have prevailed, it would have been a lot harder if the Iraqi military had remained loyal to Saddam.

Ah, no. There is no military in the Middle East save Israel that could even challenge us for more than a couple days militarily, and Israel could not stand against us either (but unlike most other nations, if they had to, they'd fight to the last man).

I'm not so sure the same thing is going to happen in Iran. It seems that the harder we push, the more people reflexively support the regime.

Again, I am not proposing an invasion.

That's going to lead to regime change and I believe that is the ultimate goal anyway. Bombing the nuclear installations opens the door for further escalation into the real policy.

All *I* care about is that Iran not have nuclear weapons. The rest means nothing to me at all. If that goal is accomplished, I don't care who runs their local ********.
 

Makalakumu

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As you so eloquently put to me, Bill. It doesn't matter so much what we want to support. It matters what our leaders are planning. I see regime change on the agenda with removing their nuclear options as the opening act.
 

Bill Mattocks

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As you so eloquently put to me, Bill. It doesn't matter so much what we want to support. It matters what our leaders are planning. I see regime change on the agenda with removing their nuclear options as the opening act.

Eh, I guess it's possible. I just don't think many people give two craps what Iran gets up to or who runs their toilet of a country. We had plenty of provocation to mess with them when we were in Iraq; they were training and arming insurgents; Americans died at the hands of Iranian military weapons given to terrorists. That was a known fact, no BS, no posturing, no games. We ignored it and pretended not to notice. So no, I don't think we have ulterior motives in Iran.
 

Makalakumu

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Cheney tried to get us into war with Iran in 2006, even going so far as to paint some patrol boats and attack our own people. The Joint Chiefs said no, because they could retaliate on our troops in Iraq. Now that we have apparently finished business there, it looks to be a possibility again.

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Bill Mattocks

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Cheney tried to get us into war with Iran in 2006, even going so far as to paint some patrol boats and attack our own people. The Joint Chiefs said no, because they could retaliate on our troops in Iraq. Now that we have apparently finished business there, it looks to be a possibility again.

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Not on the planet I live on.
 

Makalakumu

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Not on the planet I live on.

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/07/31/26940/cheney-proposal-for-iran-war/?mobile=nc

In Hersh’s most recent article, he reports that this meeting occurred in the wake of the overblown incident in the Strait of Hormuz, when a U.S. carrier almost shot at a few small Iranian speedboats. The “meeting took place in Darth Vader's office. ‘The subject was how to create a casus belli between Tehran and Washington,’” according to one of Hersh’s sources.


During the journalism conference event, I asked Hersh specifically about this meeting and if he could elaborate on what occurred. Hersh explained that, during the meeting in Vader’s office, an idea was considered to dress up Navy Seals as Iranians, put them on fake Iranian speedboats, and shoot at them. This idea, intended to provoke an Iran war, was ultimately rejected:

Boldface emphasis mine...;)
 
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