New Training Clip

[Lobo66]

Here's a short clip of some recent training sessions :

Enjoy!

 

[Vajramusti]

Thanks. Sorry-not my cup of tea,

 

[Kickboxer101]

One thing I've noticed from wing chun and everything I've seen on it. Firstly Ive never trained it and I could be totally wrong here so no offence intended this is just my observation. The hands of wing chun guys look great but it's the kicks I feel look a bit off. I lnow wing chun isn't a kicking style mainly but what I do see a lot in training videos is wing chun guys throwing a front kick at to close a range. A kick is a long range weapon yet I see guys throwing it very close to their opponent and its not getting the full extension. I mean maybe its just the videos I've seen but just my take on it

 

[HW1]

One thing I've noticed from wing chun and everything I've seen on it. Firstly Ive never trained it and I could be totally wrong here so no offence intended this is just my observation. The hands of wing chun guys look great but it's the kicks I feel look a bit off. I lnow wing chun isn't a kicking style mainly but what I do see a lot in training videos is wing chun guys throwing a front kick at to close a range. A kick is a long range weapon yet I see guys throwing it very close to their opponent and its not getting the full extension. I mean maybe its just the videos I've seen but just my take on it

The Wing Chun kick is mainly a supplemental technique rather than a damaging one. It's used to either distract, break opponent's structure, or create distance. At least that's the way I understood it.

 

[Nobody Important]

The Wing Chun kick is mainly a supplemental technique rather than a damaging one. It's used to either distract, break opponent's structure, or create distance. At least that's the way I understood it.

I somewhat understand the thinking here & don't completely disagree.

However, it was always stressed to me, that the leg is twice as powerful as an arm. Anytime it is used it should do twice the damage and always use the weapon closet to the target. Arms & legs can both be used to assist in delivering the finishing blow.

 

[KPM]

Here's a short clip of some recent training sessions :

Enjoy!

Good clip! Thanks for sharing! Nice to see something other than the usual Chi Sau/Lop Sau drill. But I have an honest question that I hope does not start another whole round of....well, you know what I mean. So question for you Lobo....multiple times in the clip I see the guys passing through or assuming what sure looks to me like the usual Wing Chun Man/Wu centerline guard. But the other thread seemed to be saying WSLVT doesn't use this guard. Can you clarify for us? Thanks!

 

[Lobo66]

@KPM
Thanks for the feedback. We use wu/man with the wu sau hand next to the man sau elbow. We are also standing frequently in the pivoted stance before entering or moving back on slight angles. This really doesn't come across well in the video because I flimed more of the upper body. I think there are some other videos where this comes across better, I'll try to find one for you.

 

[geezer]

Great clip, thanks for sharing. The close range, strongly forward pressing chi-sau and lap sau drills have a characteristic WSL flavor, otherwise I'd have to agree with KPM that that there isn;t anything I saw in the sparring/padwork that would have looked out of place in what I train. In fact, that's what I'd like to see more of in our group. Very nice.

A question about the rising elbow at 0:24. We also use that both as a strike and a cover ...both in our VT and in the Escrima I practice. Is this typical in WSL-VT as well?

 

[Lobo66]

Hi geezer,
Thanks as well for the feedback. Appreciate the kind words
No, the elbow cover/strike is definitely not typical in WSLVT. But I find it very effective so I use it and teach it.

@KPM
At the beginning of this video, the woman working on the wall bag is standing in the pivoted stance in wu/man position. I think here you see more clearly the position as well as the "path" of the punch :

 

[ShortBridge]

Thanks for sharing this clip. Nice to see how you train.

 

[KPM]

A question about the rising elbow at 0:24. We also use that both as a strike and a cover ...both in our VT and in the Escrima I practice. Is this typical in WSL-VT as well?

That's a standard thing in Pin Sun! It is a variation on our Siu Nim Tao San Sik and is called "Sau Sau" or "cover hand."

 

[KPM]

At the beginning of this video, the woman working on the wall bag is standing in the pivoted stance in wu/man position. I think here you see more clearly the position as well as the "path" of the punch :

Another good clip! I always have liked the footage from the guys in France. They seem to be one of the only WSLVT groups that have ever posted anything that comes close to sparring. Are you a part of the Lille group?

I love the way you guys incorporate basic evasive movements as well as the high cover and low cover as needed. We do this in Pin Sun as well.

Thanks for the clarification on the guard. So follow up question.....how does holding the Wu hand closer to the Man Sau elbow enable you to counterpunch any better than holding the Wu hand on the centerline? It seems to me it would take what....a split second?..... to move the Wu hand from the centerline to this position when needed. Yet that seemed to be the crux of that other discussion!

 

[Lobo66]

Lol, here in Lille we have three people who teach WSLVT. There is Ivan Heretynski who is a student of Philipp, Akim (forget his last name) who is in the ABMVT group, and myself, a student of Michael Kurth.

Regarding the wu/man position and counter punching, I did post something on the other thread but I think it must have gone unnoticed or perhaps was not clear enough.

The important thing to develop is the "path" of the punch, so it can attack and defend simultaneously.
In VT there are basically two paths depending on how the elbow travels : inside to outside (concept tan sau) and outside to inside (concept fook sau). We have various drills to help develop both concepts. It's important to remember that these are "system specific", and serve to develop attributes for both training partners.

For example, the drill that I cited earlier. Both partners are in the pivoted stance in wu/man position. One attacks with jut/punch and the other counter attacks with a straight punch (assume both are orthodox). If the counter puncher doesn't start with his wu hand in the proper position and doesn't follow the right "path" for the punch, both partners will either hit each other simultaneously or smash their fists together.

 

[KPM]

Lol, here in Lille we have three people who teach WSLVT. There is Ivan Heretynski who is a student of Philipp, Akim (forget his last name) who is in the ABMVT group, and myself, a student of Michael Kurth.

---Ah! You must be Sean? I always liked and appreciated your posts in that "other" forum.

Regarding the wu/man position and counter punching, I did post something on the other thread but I think it must have gone unnoticed or perhaps was not clear enough.

----Likely got lost in the "noise." Sorry I missed it!


The important thing to develop is the "path" of the punch, so it can attack and defend simultaneously. In VT there are basically two paths depending on how the elbow travels : inside to outside (concept tan sau) and outside to inside (concept fook sau).

---That makes sense. So by holding the Wu close to the elbow you are betting on the opponent punching so that you can block and punch at the same time on the inside to outside line. Good concept. But honestly I can do the same thing from a centerline position simply by moving my hand in 3 inches prior to punching. However, if I don't see it coming in time I might not be able to do this, so I can see there is some advantage to this position. But I don't see it as having near the importance or significance that someone else seemed to be giving it! But how would this help you in the scenario you described on the other thread?.....someone smacking down the lead hand and throwing a fast hook with the same hand. Seems to me that where your Wu Sau is positioned in this instance would be irrelevant.


For example, the drill that I cited earlier. Both partners are in the pivoted stance in wu/man position. One attacks with jut/punch and the other counter attacks with a straight punch (assume both are orthodox). If the counter puncher doesn't start with his wu hand in the proper position and doesn't follow the right "path" for the punch, both partners will either hit each other simultaneously or smash their fists together.

----I can see that. But could the person not also start a little wide of the centerline and counter with a punch on the outside to inside line? Or could he not start on the centerline and adjust his Wu hand in either direction just before punching?

---- I notice how much better a discussion goes when someone just clearly states what they mean rather than playing the "guess what I'm thinking" game. Thanks!

 

[LFJ]

But honestly I can do the same thing from a centerline position simply by moving my hand in 3 inches prior to punching. However, if I don't see it coming in time I might not be able to do this, so I can see there is some advantage to this position.

In a close-quarters, high-speed fistfight, very unlikely. No time to think and be reactive like that. You will always be "in the past". The counterpunch must be instinctive and immediate, cutting the opponent off, one step ahead.

But I don't see it as having near the importance or significance that someone else seemed to be giving it!

Let's not forget, in the scenario on the other thread dealing with a common straight punch (what every WC practitioner should be able to handle easily), every other WT/WC idea from center guard failed and ended up with everyone accepting they'd have to chase, cover, and likely just take the hit.

That's pretty significant, I'd say.

It's part of an important theme running through the entire system, the relationship between taan and fuk. It is one of the first things introduced in SNT.

It is also one of those subtle things about free-fighting YM taught and few received, for obvious reasons. Every frontal shot of him with a rear wu-sau clearly shows it offset and not stubbornly occupying center. Once you know this, you can see it in side shots too.

But how would this help you in the scenario you described on the other thread?.....someone smacking down the lead hand and throwing a fast hook with the same hand.

That wasn't the scenario. It was dealing with simple straight punches. Hooks and looping punches of all sorts would be a different scenario.

But could the person not also start a little wide of the centerline and counter with a punch on the outside to inside line? Or could he not start on the centerline and adjust his Wu hand in either direction just before punching?

No. Because with a right wu-sau wide of center the anatomical limit the elbow can travel is to the center line. It won't be able to defend straight line punches coming anywhere left of center, even slightly.

Again, adjusting your wu-sau before punching takes registering the incoming line of attack relative to your own position, and deciding to move your hand outside that line to then cut back across it. Highly unlikely to work.

If we look at the diagram again, we'll see this second option represented by the green line. To react like this, and accurately, when a punch is already coming takes too long and too much conscious thought. And if held wide of center, you can see your elbow will not be able to obstruct those red attack lines at all. The only option is to chase the arm or get knocked out.

With wu-sau already properly positioned, it needs only counterpunch directly, thoughtlessly once man-sau is lost. The forearm will have cleared the space those lines are coming through, plus the center line itself and even slightly wide of center as the elbow expands off line while the fist punches straight to target.

Simple, direct, efficient... and most importantly, effective.

Of course there's no guarantee or perfect response in fighting. But it's a matter of percentages. This is certainly more effective and reliable than chase, cover, and take the hit.

 

[LFJ]

----Likely got lost in the "noise." Sorry I missed it!

---- I notice how much better a discussion goes when someone just clearly states what they mean rather than playing the "guess what I'm thinking" game. Thanks!

It was clearly stated on the other thread, at least twice.

You even replied to Lobo's post where he clearly gave counterpunch with automatic defense as an option, and even described how it's done, but you still chose option 1, to chase and cover.

That's the problem with holding grudges and being stuck in argue-anything-and-everything-they-say mode. You don't see clearly.

I mean, it was very simple. There are only three positions your wu-sau can take in relation to the center line. If on center and wide of center both fail, what's 3 - 2? So, what's the last option?

I was certain you would come to it if you could just calm down and consider what could be changed about the center guard. There were at least three of you guys putting your heads together, after all.

 

[Lobo66]

Regarding someone pulling down/controlling your lead man sau : When it's too late, when you've made a mistake or your opponent is a beat ahead of you then you just have to survive and try to recover position as fast as possible. This is not the scenario that LBF is talking about. And you're right, in this particular scenario it doesn't matter where you hold your wu. But it had better be able to protect your head! Pak sau together with a shoulder shrug and tucking your chin is probably your best bet. Perhaps I should not have introduced this in the other thread. I think it just confused the issue. Sorry guys.

In training VT, if you hold your (right) wu on the center line and then try to move it left before punching you'll more than likely be a beat behind the action. The whole point is that the forward intent of wu is converted directly and instinctively into a punch that "cuts the way".

More generally, wu and man are concepts and not fixed positions. Wu sau is the hand that protects when necessary but also the hand that is poised to attack with forward intent. Man sau is the hand that "tests" the opponent...like a scout sent ahead of the troops.

In VT training, we adapt a fixed position for wu and man in order to develop certain attributes and strategies. It's developmental. It makes no "system internal" sense to do it otherwise. What does make sense is to apply these skills and strategies developed through training to different situations in order to "test" them.

This is why, in my opinion, sparring with other martial artists (for combat sport efficacy) and doing personal defense scenario training (for "street" readiness) is so important. You have to "contextualize" your skills.

 

[LFJ]

And you're right, in this particular scenario it doesn't matter where you hold your wu. But it had better be able to protect your head! Pak sau together with a shoulder shrug and tucking your chin is probably your best bet.

Having your wu-sau already on that side makes for quicker and easier protection like this too. That counts when we're talking nanoseconds you have in which to respond.

It also often discourages attacks on a well-guarded side, making likely incoming attack lines more predictable than sitting on center not knowing to go left or right. The given scenario (dealing with a simple straight punch) is not the only failing of the center guard, it often leads to superfluous two-arm actions and reactive arm chasing to every "gate" it creates, rather than direct counterpunching with automatic defense as the basic idea, because occupying center doesn't really control space.

Simply incorporating this idea into a strategy that doesn't support it might not help all that much, though. It works as one element of an overall strategy and in concert with other tactics toward the goal.

As these ideas are introduced starting in SNT, it's really impossible that the entire strategy could be reconceptualized into the existing actions of the forms without having to change anything if it were not the original interpretation. One would be better off creating a new MA from scratch.

We have already demonstrated to folks who have acknowledged the failings of the center guard. The system coherence and functionality, plus photos of YM showing this all suggest it is how YM's system was originally. It was not a WSL invention.

This is only relevant to YM derived VT though. Mainland systems appear to be entirely different, and no doubt have their method that works for them. As KPM and NI don't use the center guard, this should not be a problem to objectively recognize about YMVT.

 

[Lobo66]

Having your wu-sau already on that side makes for quicker and easier protection like this too. That counts when we're talking nanoseconds you have in which to respond.

It also often discourages attacks on a well-guarded side, making likely incoming attack lines more predictable than sitting on center not knowing to go left or right. The given scenario (dealing with a simple straight punch) is not the only failing of the center guard, it often leads to superfluous two-arm actions and reactive arm chasing to every "gate" it creates, rather than direct counterpunching with automatic defense as the basic idea, because occupying center doesn't really control space.

Yes. This is the idea in WSLVT.

 

[KangTsai]

The Wing Chun kick is mainly a supplemental technique rather than a damaging one. It's used to either distract, break opponent's structure, or create distance. At least that's the way I understood it.

I think not using kicks for primarily damage is pretty wasted. If you've ever taken a hard kick to the side of the knee... It just cripples you.