Kombatan question from an outsider

[Brother John]

Just curious...
My friend has recently sung the praises of a local "Kombatan" school here in Wichita Ks. I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the art and where I might find out more.
Thanks

Your Brother
John

 

[LAKANPOPOT]

Brother John,
Kombatan Arnis and Mano Mano is/are systems of GM Ernesto A. Presas. Some of us call it the Evolution of GM Ernesto Presas' Systems. Because GM Ernesto being to younger brother of the late Prof. Remy Presas we also called our stick system Modern Arnis at a certain time. Then came Arnis Presas style for individuality. At the same time GM taught Mano-Mano publicly in the early '90s. Then He called his system Kombatan. All we can say is it will keep on evolving. What does the system teach. We start with Double stick, Single stick, Espada Y daga, Daga sa Daga(knife fighting), Dulo-Dulo(palm stick), Bangkaw(staff),and Mano-mano.

Lakanpopot

 

[Rich Parsons]

Brother John,
Kombatan Arnis and Mano Mano is/are systems of GM Ernesto A. Presas. Some of us call it the Evolution of GM Ernesto Presas' Systems. Because GM Ernesto being to younger brother of the late Prof. Remy Presas we also called our stick system Modern Arnis at a certain time. Then came Arnis Presas style for individuality. At the same time GM taught Mano-Mano publicly in the early '90s. Then He called his system Kombatan. All we can say is it will keep on evolving. What does the system teach. We start with Double stick, Single stick, Espada Y daga, Daga sa Daga(knife fighting), Dulo-Dulo(palm stick), Bangkaw(staff),and Mano-mano.

Lakanpopot

Nicely Said Sir!


I have meet Rick Manglinong who teaches Kombatan in Lake Tahoe. I respect the Man, his talent, and the art and techniques he shares with those willing to listen.

They have camps in the P.I., I believe every other year. I would go check them out and see what they have.

:asian:

 

[arnisandyz]

Nicely Said Sir!


I have meet Rick Manglinong who teaches Kombatan in Lake Tahoe. I respect the Man, his talent, and the art and techniques he shares with those willing to listen.

They have camps in the P.I., I believe every other year. I would go check them out and see what they have.

:asian:

I have had the pleasure of meeting GM Fred Lazo and his son at a Filipino Combat Systems gathering where he did a nice demo of "flowing". I belive he is teaching in ZepherHills Florida. He is associated with both GM Ernesto and GM Remy Presas (although he was representing Kobatan at the time).

 

[Mark Lynn]

Kombatan Arnis

If you do a search on Kombatan you should come across the official website which does a pretty good job of describing the system and it's history.

Kombatan has schools in Europe and in some other countries including the U.S.

Sadly I heard this past weekend at one of Hock's seminars from Master Julius Melegrito that GM E. Presas won't be coming to the states probably till 2007 since he has his camps and the Filpino Hall of Fame in the PI he will be tied up. Master Julius I believe runs the website (last I heard) and the organization here in the U.S.

I met some of the Kansas Kombatan people at a seminar in Tulsa back in 99/00/01 (?) and I believe they have a pretty good group up there.

My own personal opinion here. Kombatan is a great system while it has some commonality with types of strikes, striking patterns, disarms and such with Modern Arnis. However there is a more combative feel to the system than with Modern Anris. I always felt it was like karate in the hit them and take them down and finish it approach, where as Modern Anris had a more jujitsu feel to it with the locking emphasis.

Kombatan has more emphasis on learning the classical double stick patterns (Sinawalis) (and double stick material) with greater variation than Modern Arnis. And there seems to be more Espada y Daga material as well in the form of mini patterns or responses to fed attacks. The knife material as well has more material in it in it's emty hand vs. knife defense and knife vs. knife material (again it is more combative with the hitting and taking the person to the ground approach).

Please don't mis interpret with my stating what I feel are differences between Kombatan and Modern Arnis. I am comparing the two only as a reference point since I know that Modern Anris is by far the more popular of the two systems or that more people have seen and been influenced by the Prof. here in the states. Therefore I'm comparing them to show how they are (I feel) different. NOT THAT ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER.

Since 1995 I have taken every opportunity to get to train with both GM Remy and GM Ernesto and I have earned lakan ranks in both systems. Frankly I have been blest with having the opportunity to train under and receive instruction from both of them.

With respect
Mark

 

[LAKANPOPOT]

Kombatan Arnis

If you do a search on Kombatan you should come across the official website which does a pretty good job of describing the system and it's history.

Kombatan has schools in Europe and in some other countries including the U.S.

Sadly I heard this past weekend at one of Hock's seminars from Master Julius Melegrito that GM E. Presas won't be coming to the states probably till 2007 since he has his camps and the Filpino Hall of Fame in the PI he will be tied up. Master Julius I believe runs the website (last I heard) and the organization here in the U.S.

I met some of the Kansas Kombatan people at a seminar in Tulsa back in 99/00/01 (?) and I believe they have a pretty good group up there.

My own personal opinion here. Kombatan is a great system while it has some commonality with types of strikes, striking patterns, disarms and such with Modern Arnis. However there is a more combative feel to the system than with Modern Anris. I always felt it was like karate in the hit them and take them down and finish it approach, where as Modern Anris had a more jujitsu feel to it with the locking emphasis.

Kombatan has more emphasis on learning the classical double stick patterns (Sinawalis) (and double stick material) with greater variation than Modern Arnis. And there seems to be more Espada y Daga material as well in the form of mini patterns or responses to fed attacks. The knife material as well has more material in it in it's emty hand vs. knife defense and knife vs. knife material (again it is more combative with the hitting and taking the person to the ground approach).

Please don't mis interpret with my stating what I feel are differences between Kombatan and Modern Arnis. I am comparing the two only as a reference point since I know that Modern Anris is by far the more popular of the two systems or that more people have seen and been influenced by the Prof. here in the states. Therefore I'm comparing them to show how they are (I feel) different. NOT THAT ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER.

Since 1995 I have taken every opportunity to get to train with both GM Remy and GM Ernesto and I have earned lakan ranks in both systems. Frankly I have been blest with having the opportunity to train under and receive instruction from both of them.

With respect
Mark

Mark in a sense makes a point. I as a long time practitioner of GM Ernesto Presas system will tell you. GM Ernesto does do locks and controls but not as much as GM REmy. In the sense that they had the same based jujitsu system until GM Remy met and crossed trained with Prof Wally Jay. Kombatan likes immediate takedown or control in that sense. We like to grab the stick more than the usual Modern Arnis(of which later I learned went back to the roots of Balintawak).
Another difference is that Kombatan concentrates on teaching the Sinawali and double stick fighting to balance out the Left and Right coordination. The Solo baston aspect of Kombatan teaches that we learn the old traditional systems of arnis (Hirada Batanguena, Palis Palis, Force to Force abanico doblada, Sungkiti etc.) To understand the New Modern Arnis aspects of the Presas family art. You will see the different flavors the Two masters(brothers) show by the way their curriculum is set and taught. But both compliment each other very well. I did not hear it from GM Remy but GM Ernesto said they want all his students to be able to blend with all systems in FMA. I sometimes call Kombatan the JKD of arnis.(That is only my opinion) We emphasis all movements with a little modification can be used in weapons or emptyhand. Same as most FMA. Kombatan is a good system to cross train with. Master Julius Melegrito of Nebraska is our Secretary General for the US. He takes care of our website. Feel free to check it out. Thanks for your interest. If you have questions you can address it to Master Melegrito.

Lakanpopot

 

[Rich Parsons]

. . .
Kombatan likes immediate takedown or control in that sense. We like to grab the stick more than the usual Modern Arnis(of which later I learned went back to the roots of Balintawak).
. . .
Lakanpopot

Lakanpopot,

Could you please explain the above comment a little more with details?

The grabbing is more like Balintawak?

The Not grabbing is more like Balintawak?


From my experience, it is the Not grabbing. So, I am not baiting you to be jumped. I just wish to understand, for there are many lineages now within the Balintawak Family.

Thank You
:asian:

 

[LAKANPOPOT]

What I mean by grabbing the stick is we hold the stick instead of parrying. I notice that what I saw from Prof. Remy at a seminar and videos that he doesn't emphasize the "catching" of the stick. I could be wrong. These are only my observations. I asked Rick Maglinong to show me some movements. I notice the same thing. I am open for correction.

About immediate takedowns. GM Ernesto likes to Trap the stick or weapon hand to control, lock the opponent and takedown. Actually, almost the same as Prof. Remy. But Prof. Remy emphasized alot of stand up locks. ONly from what I have observed.
Please feel free to comment. I am not an expert in both fields. Just a humble practitioner. I like to share. So do not take anything wrong. Thanks.

Lakanpopot.

 

[Cruentus]

What I mean by grabbing the stick is we hold the stick instead of parrying. I notice that what I saw from Prof. Remy at a seminar and videos that he doesn't emphasize the "catching" of the stick. I could be wrong. These are only my observations. I asked Rick Maglinong to show me some movements. I notice the same thing. I am open for correction.

About immediate takedowns. GM Ernesto likes to Trap the stick or weapon hand to control, lock the opponent and takedown. Actually, almost the same as Prof. Remy. But Prof. Remy emphasized alot of stand up locks. ONly from what I have observed.
Please feel free to comment. I am not an expert in both fields. Just a humble practitioner. I like to share. So do not take anything wrong. Thanks.

Lakanpopot.

It's hard to tell online. I'd have to see what Guro Rick taught you to comment! :asian:

 

[arnisador]

I felt like the Prof. grabbed the stick a lot, but I can't compare it to how often his brother does it!

 

[LAKANPOPOT]

Hi guys!
I stand corrected. It is only my observation. I did not train with the Prof. You know the Professor more than I do. Like I said I notice that when he does his flow he likes to block with a cutting deflection then check. But the Prof. grabs it when he performs his controls and traps. In a sense, what I mean is as he does his abecedario and his Tapi-tapi Prof. does what Tapi means check. He grabs if only he performs a technique. Correct me if I am wrong. That's how he showed me. He asked me who I trained with. I told him his brother Ernesto. He got excited and showed me his flow and asked if I have seen this before. I said my teacher showed me that but did not explain it much.
YOu see when the Prof. knows that he is talking to one of his brother's students somehow he wants to show us his research. I know it is hard to explain. But he showed me a tapi-tapi flow that was Modern arnis but more Balintawak. He went full circle in a sense. Putting his modern style with the old style he had learn. Please do not take my words literally. I am and observer of Modern Arnis of Prof. Remy. I am a long time student of GM Ernesto Presas. I find that if I do my research of the Prof's system I will understand my teacher's system. Again don't misinterpret my words. It is only an observation. One thing I notice about the two brothers is that they get excited in front of an audience. And you will see that they get carried away and show moves they have not shown everyone.

Lakanpopot

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi guys!
I stand corrected. It is only my observation. I did not train with the Prof. You know the Professor more than I do. Like I said I notice that when he does his flow he likes to block with a cutting deflection then check. But the Prof. grabs it when he performs his controls and traps. In a sense, what I mean is as he does his abecedario and his Tapi-tapi Prof. does what Tapi means check. He grabs if only he performs a technique. Correct me if I am wrong. That's how he showed me. He asked me who I trained with. I told him his brother Ernesto. He got excited and showed me his flow and asked if I have seen this before. I said my teacher showed me that but did not explain it much.
YOu see when the Prof. knows that he is talking to one of his brother's students somehow he wants to show us his research. I know it is hard to explain. But he showed me a tapi-tapi flow that was Modern arnis but more Balintawak. He went full circle in a sense. Putting his modern style with the old style he had learn. Please do not take my words literally. I am and observer of Modern Arnis of Prof. Remy. I am a long time student of GM Ernesto Presas. I find that if I do my research of the Prof's system I will understand my teacher's system. Again don't misinterpret my words. It is only an observation. One thing I notice about the two brothers is that they get excited in front of an audience. And you will see that they get carried away and show moves they have not shown everyone.

Lakanpopot

I have no problem with believing that GM Remy A. Presas used Balintawak when and where he choose too. He also used lots of other skills and techniques he had learned elsewhere as well.

Good Information.
:asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

Rich

I thought that when GM Remy started teaching his Tapi Tapi with the grabbing of the stick and the locking that that was more of a Balintawak influence. Not being a student of Balintawak (only seeing one seminar of GM Toboada's) I thought the Tapi drills went along with or seemed similar to the grouped version of Balintawak. Am I wrong? I'm just curious.

Mark

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich

I thought that when GM Remy started teaching his Tapi Tapi with the grabbing of the stick and the locking that that was more of a Balintawak influence. Not being a student of Balintawak (only seeing one seminar of GM Toboada's) I thought the Tapi drills went along with or seemed similar to the grouped version of Balintawak. Am I wrong? I'm just curious.

Mark

Mark,

Other than with GM Ted Buot and Maybe GM Remy Presas, I have not trained with anyone of the Balintawak lineage. The Grouped version would have been more of the Villasin lineage. (GM) Toboada, from my undestanding trained with Pilo Vilez (GM), and (GM) Joe Villasin, and even with GM Anciong Bacon. As GM Remy Presas was of the (GM) Mongcal and (GM) Maranga. This would have been more of the modifed version, to use Rocky's terms . So, I do not think the Tapi-Tapi per se was Balntawak. In the Balintawak as taught by (GM) Ted Buot, there is no grabbing or let me say very little grabbing, and only for certain techniques for disarms, etc.

Some people have made the comment that GM Remy Presas created Modern Arnis to counter Balintawak. As I was not told this, by GM Remy Presas, I do not know this to be true. I do think both are good arts and can be used effectively.

So, to say the Tapi-Tapi is like Balintawak is to say it is like Seguidas the Fundamentals or the Abecedario out of order. It could also be in the Corraidas where the mixing bowl or the free sparring portion comes in. So, yes there are similarities, yet there are obvious differences from my perspective of teachers.

Clear as mudd Mark?

I have to go, I will reply back later and try to maybe clarify, after I have had more time to put my ideas into words.

:asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

Mark,

Other than with GM Ted Buot and Maybe GM Remy Presas, I have not trained with anyone of the Balintawak lineage. The Grouped version would have been more of the Villasin lineage. (GM) Toboada, from my undestanding trained with Pilo Vilez (GM), and (GM) Joe Villasin, and even with GM Anciong Bacon. As GM Remy Presas was of the (GM) Mongcal and (GM) Maranga. This would have been more of the modifed version, to use Rocky's terms . So, I do not think the Tapi-Tapi per se was Balntawak. In the Balintawak as taught by (GM) Ted Buot, there is no grabbing or let me say very little grabbing, and only for certain techniques for disarms, etc.

Some people have made the comment that GM Remy Presas created Modern Arnis to counter Balintawak. As I was not told this, by GM Remy Presas, I do not know this to be true. I do think both are good arts and can be used effectively.

So, to say the Tapi-Tapi is like Balintawak is to say it is like Seguidas the Fundamentals or the Abecedario out of order. It could also be in the Corraidas where the mixing bowl or the free sparring portion comes in. So, yes there are similarities, yet there are obvious differences from my perspective of teachers.

Clear as mudd Mark?

I have to go, I will reply back later and try to maybe clarify, after I have had more time to put my ideas into words.

:asian:

Rich

Clear as Mudd, yeah like the thick black TEXAS Gumbo type. Could you explain the terms corraidas, Seguidas, and what maybe the fundementals are (in a sense) I'm trying to gain a reference point so that I might better understand where the Tapi fits in (if at all in Balintawak).

My observation as to the grouped versions drills of GM Toboada's Balintawak is in reference to GM Remy's Right on Right Tapi series, to me what I experienced at the one seminar I attended with GM Toboada, and from watching his tapes to me the pattern seemed similar and the concept behind the drill seemed similar and they both ended up into ultimately freestyle.

This seemed closer in relation to the grouped drills and the R on R Tapi than say Sumbrada (Box 3/6 count, or the 5/10 count, Punyo Sumbrada etc. etc.) or Hubud which are set patterns concerned with flow with each person doing the same pattern and then switching. So this is where I'm drawing my conclusion (and I'm just wondering if I'm on the right track or not).

To me GM Remy's Sinawali Boxing drills look similar in concept and progression to GM Toboadas Empty hand boxing drills. While they are different in execution and look, GM Remy's had more of an emphasis on the locking and GM Toboada's has more emphasis on the boxing aspect, I still think they are similar in many ways. Again this would be more similar than say Guro Inosanto's empty hand material be it Jan Fan or John LaCosta's method of empty hand responses to punches.

I stress the to me and I only because these are my opinons and my observations. I in no way saying that these things are so because I was told this or that.

Mark
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich

Clear as Mudd, yeah like the thick black TEXAS Gumbo type. Could you explain the terms corraidas, Seguidas, and what maybe the fundementals are (in a sense) I'm trying to gain a reference point so that I might better understand where the Tapi fits in (if at all in Balintawak).

My observation as to the grouped versions drills of GM Toboada's Balintawak is in reference to GM Remy's Right on Right Tapi series, to me what I experienced at the one seminar I attended with GM Toboada, and from watching his tapes to me the pattern seemed similar and the concept behind the drill seemed similar and they both ended up into ultimately freestyle.

This seemed closer in relation to the grouped drills and the R on R Tapi than say Sumbrada (Box 3/6 count, or the 5/10 count, Punyo Sumbrada etc. etc.) or Hubud which are set patterns concerned with flow with each person doing the same pattern and then switching. So this is where I'm drawing my conclusion (and I'm just wondering if I'm on the right track or not).

To me GM Remy's Sinawali Boxing drills look similar in concept and progression to GM Toboadas Empty hand boxing drills. While they are different in execution and look, GM Remy's had more of an emphasis on the locking and GM Toboada's has more emphasis on the boxing aspect, I still think they are similar in many ways. Again this would be more similar than say Guro Inosanto's empty hand material be it Jan Fan or John LaCosta's method of empty hand responses to punches.

I stress the to me and I only because these are my opinons and my observations. I in no way saying that these things are so because I was told this or that.

Mark
:asian:

Mark,

This is from the Manong (GM) Ted Buot, and GM Anciong Bacon perspective.
The other modified, and grouped version do things slightly differently. No disrespect meant, only I do not know it in detail, therefor I will not comment.

Abecedario is the fundamentals. The instructor strikes 1 through 12 in order. The student blocks checks/manages/monitors/delays with the left hand and counter strikes, while executing your footwork and body mechanics at teh same time. i.e. Block / check / counter. The original Tap-Tapi I Saw was done like this. So, in this fashion I could see the similarities between Modern Arnis and Balintawak.

Seguidas is the fundamentals out of order. The instructor still strikes 1 through 12, only in random and not in order. This is the beginning of the randomization of the trainning.

Corraidas is the mixing bowl. At the beginning it is Seguidas with the first couple of new techniques you have been taught or you teach the student. IT becomes the responsibility of the instructor to guide the student through the development and placement of the footwork and body mechanics and also the live hand.

Later the Corraidas becomes close to semi-sparring. The instructor now leads the student through a series of techniques, and the student does not know what the instructor will do next.

Within Corraidas you learn lots of techniques, and if you ever have a problem with your response you fall back to the fundamentals for what to do. Even after this, you will be taught the prefered techniques, that require a greater insight or better timing, and are the prefered ones, as they limit the counters to them. Notice I did not say any of the techniques had no counter. Just limited the types and amount of counters to be in your advantage.

You also learn lansis, which to fake or set up your opponent.

This is all within the Corraidas portion.

So there are similarities, in form and style. There are differences as well, such as in Balintawak you do not grab, and in Modern Arnis as per GM Remy A. Presas sometimes you grab sometimes you only chack and monitor.


Does this help?

 

[Guro Harold]

Some people have made the comment that GM Remy Presas created Modern Arnis to counter Balintawak. :asian:

Hi Rich,

Actually, my recollection was I thought that he said once in a seminar that L vs R Tapi-Tapi was to counter Balintawak.

I am sure someone can counter that statement if they wish but I am merely going from my recollection.

Later,

Palusut

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Mark,

This is from the Manong (GM) Ted Buot, and GM Anciong Bacon perspective.
The other modified, and grouped version do things slightly differently. No disrespect meant, only I do not know it in detail, therefor I will not comment.

Abecedario is the fundamentals. The instructor strikes 1 through 12 in order. The student blocks checks/manages/monitors/delays with the left hand and counter strikes, while executing your footwork and body mechanics at teh same time. i.e. Block / check / counter. The original Tap-Tapi I Saw was done like this. So, in this fashion I could see the similarities between Modern Arnis and Balintawak.

Seguidas is the fundamentals out of order. The instructor still strikes 1 through 12, only in random and not in order. This is the beginning of the randomization of the trainning.

Corraidas is the mixing bowl. At the beginning it is Seguidas with the first couple of new techniques you have been taught or you teach the student. IT becomes the responsibility of the instructor to guide the student through the development and placement of the footwork and body mechanics and also the live hand.

Later the Corraidas becomes close to semi-sparring. The instructor now leads the student through a series of techniques, and the student does not know what the instructor will do next.

Within Corraidas you learn lots of techniques, and if you ever have a problem with your response you fall back to the fundamentals for what to do. Even after this, you will be taught the prefered techniques, that require a greater insight or better timing, and are the prefered ones, as they limit the counters to them. Notice I did not say any of the techniques had no counter. Just limited the types and amount of counters to be in your advantage.

You also learn lansis, which to fake or set up your opponent.

This is all within the Corraidas portion.

So there are similarities, in form and style. There are differences as well, such as in Balintawak you do not grab, and in Modern Arnis as per GM Remy A. Presas sometimes you grab sometimes you only chack and monitor.


Does this help?

Rich,
Your description of (GM) Ted Buot's methods, seem very similar to the Villasin/Velez grouped method (also referred to as palakaw and/or padagan). The terms abecedario (spanish for alphabet), seguidas (sequence), and corridas (flow), are not used anymore (or atleast my teacher does not use these terms anymore). Cuentada, though, is still used, and is considered the pinnacle of Balintawak training.

Basics is as you've described it under Abecedario. Seguidas and Corridas, as you've described, fall under the "grouped" drill/method (actually "drill" is a misnomer, since much of the grouped method is random). The best analogy for the palakaw/padagan (grouped) method is that one can view it as a rail road, it's the infra-structure of this particular training method. The individual train cars are the various techniques. At the start of the journey, you only have one train car--the Basics (12 strikes, 12 defensive blocks, and basic footwork). The more you progress on the tracks (the padagan),the more cars are added (various techniques). Your ability to "flow" is what propels the train. Eventually you become this really efficient locomotive. Which means you move on to the next level. This is the longest to master. And before, you move on from this level, you have to learn the instructor's part.

The next, and final level, is Cuentada, and you need a completely different analogy to describe this, maybe a rocket ship, which just keeps on soaring, discovering more about yourself as an individual fighter. But, I'm not there yet, so I won't even try to describe this level.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Rich

Thanks for the explanation of the terms and in a sense the methodology behind the training drills. I guess that is what I meant by seeing (a) the connection between Modern Anris and Balintawak. In that the concept behind the Tapi drills is the same /similar progression in what you described in you post.

In Modern Arnis prior to learning the R to R Tapi we often did the block/check and counter drills first. And then learning the Tapi the order is mixed up and the teacher feeds the pattern making the trainee follow. And in the end it becomes random.

In the highest levels of play that I observed it is very close to semi controlled stick sparring at pretty close range with blocks, checks, counters, set ups to disarms, locks, stealing the drive, combative hits to the checking hand, switching of the stick between hands, etc. etc. etc.

But the main idea is having the teacher feed the student and lead them to techniques thereby programing them or cutting down their counters (or choices for the counters). I haven't seen that emphasis brought out in drills like Sumbrada or Hubud before, or even GM Ernesto's Kombatan freestyle pattern. It doesn't mean that it's not or that it couldn't be rather just I have never seen it expressed in these drills before.

Anyway thanks for the input.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Lakanpopot

How long have you been studying GM Ernesto's system? And where are you based? If you don't mind me asking. I'd like to ask you some curriculmn questions on Kombatan if I could.

Mark