Knife questions from the uninformed!

[Aaron]

As a police officer for the last 10 years I've been taught that if a knife (gun or club) comes into play (meaning it's within grabbing range) I need to "control the weapon". Get ahold of the hand that has the weapon and don't let go.

Lately I've become interested in knife fighting/knife defense. I've seen some FMA video clips and writings which show a lot of blocking and parrying, not too much grabbing or controling. The same goes for my art, American Kenpo. I am of course keeping in mind that my exposure to FMA is fairly limited.

My question is this, if a knife comes into play (and I manage to see it!) do I "grab and control" or do I parry and gain distance?

Any help is appreciated!

Aaron

 

[Wmarden]

Actually this is sidestepping the issue and only specifically for police or other situations in which you are properly armed, but a knife is deadly force and should be responded to as such. IE draw if possible, or create distance and then draw. Of course each situation is different. Some situations I would try to put the opponent on the ground and then draw.

Like the old saying goes "don't bring a knife to a gunfight"

 

[KenpoDragon]

It all depends on the situation, the first thing I teach my students when dealing with weapons of any kind is always control the weapon. Just to let you know I am a Kali instructor as well as Kenpo instructor. In Kali we use parries a lot, usually because we also have a knife in our hands. In the case of knife versus no knife grab and control, is always the safest bet. Try and knock the weapon away if possible and take it out of the equation. In your situation though if possible I would advise getting distance between you and the attacker, since you have a sidearm. That can be a problem when "closing the gap", because of your weapon, if you get too close your attacker may decide to try and grab your gun. In your case I'd say shoot the S.O.B and call it a day, but that's just me. I know you probably don't want all the paperwork. The best training is "live" training, find a FMA teacher in your area, if you can. Videotapes hardly ever give the person the necessary "respect" for the knife that they should have. By the way I hate to say it but since I have trained in Kenpo and Kali the Kenpo "Lance" techniques are NOWHERE close to a real knife fighters attacks. I would always laugh when my old instructor would say, "now this is how a guy with a knife will attack you" , yeah right only if he's a complete idiot. A experienced knife fighter will almost certainly cut you, the only difference is will it be a fatal cut. That's something my old Kali instructor taught me, in a knife fight YOU ARE GOING TO BE CUT, you have to determine what you are willing to sacrifice. I suggest your forearms or hands, hurts but not fatal. Hope that helps.

:asian:

 

[Cthulhu]

See if you can find an old video called "Surviving Edged Weapons". I believe it was produced with LEOs in mind, and includes a demonstration of the Teuller Drill.

I agree with Wmarden...do whatever it takes to create distance and draw. Body armor can protect you from most slashing attacks, but there are many parts of your body not covered by armor where a slash will give you a bad day. Concealable armor may not give you adequate stab protection, either.

Back the heck up and draw that pistola!

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Some previous discussion:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=879

Somewhere there's also discussion of W. Hock Hocheim's theory that you should grab with both hands, not pass--but I can't find it.

 

[Aaron]

KenpoDragon,

You hit the nail on the head with Kenpo "lance" techinques. I'm still very new to Kenpo so I haven't seen or had the opportunity to work with the lance stuff. What I have seen made me wonder a bit....

Also I have seen the "surviving edged weapons" video. It was a great training aid and really opened a lot of eyes in the LE world. If the attacker is within 21 feet and charges, don't even bother with the gun!

I'm very much interested in the knife fighting/knife defense but I also really enjoy Kenpo and don't want to jump ship. I've tried to get in on some training offered by Tony Blauer (I think he was the instructor) at a nearby agency but wasn't able to get the time off. So my quest continues.

Thanks to everyone for your imput!

Aaron

 

[KenpoDragon]

Anytime bro, by the way I'm not suggesting you dump Kenpo, I'm simply suggesting cross training in a FMA if possible. Kenpo is in my opinion the best hand to hand system, but when it comes down to weapons, it lacks a little. FMA's are the best (in my opinion) when it comes down to weapons. By the way I would also suggest some form of grappling training too, such as Jujutsu, Judo, Sambo, Hapkido, or some other grappling based art. It will help to be well rounded in every aspect of fighting, hand to hand, weapons, and grappling. Just a suggestion, good luck with your search.

:yinyang: :asian: KenpoDragon

 

[Cthulhu]

I think a lot of kenpo people crosstrain in FMA, particularly for the weapons work.

Cthulhu

 

[Danny T]

Aaron,

You bring up a very good question and as already stated it really does depend upon the situation. As a FMA instructor, a combat veteran in Vietnam and Cambodia, a Police self-defense tactics instructor, I instruct Evade, Stun, Create Distance, Draw.
Evade- Move your body off of the path of the attack
Stun- Attack the delivery system (If you have time)
Create distance- Again move (Remember the 21 foot principle)
Draw- Use a longer range weapon. In your case probably your service firearm.

The parry and pass is only to buy the time to attack and then create distance. I teach to parry/pass while attacking at the same time or in combination. Again to buy the time to create distance. If you can’t create distance or don’t have time to attack then control the weapon arm using whatever method is available. Just realize the longer your are in contact with the attacker the more likely damage can and will be done to you. Control only long enough to be able to counter attack then create distance immediately. The absolute last thing you should do is stand toe to toe fighting a knife. If you must control the weapon arm/hand don't forget the other arm/hand the attacker has. What about the attacker's buddys? Where are they do you really want to be tighted up with one while the other is knifing you or bashing your head in? Create distance!

Danny

 

[dearnis.com]

Surviving Edged Weapons is availible through Calibre Press
http://www.calibrepress.com