Katana size?

[arnisador]

Were the two samurai swords made in standard sizes, or were they sized to the individual?

I know they were made individually, of course, but I assume the molds were pretty standard?

 

[Charles Mahan]

Sizes vary quite widely, although the Tokugawa established a maximum legal length if I'm not mistaken. Different ryu-ha prescribe different length weapons. MJER was known for using longer than average swords.

And I'm not sure what you meant by "molds" as katana were not cast, but forged.

 

[someguy]

Also swords could be passed down in gernerations some times and such so size was more determind by who made it over who used it. I'm sure there are some that were made for a sinngle individual though.

 

[clapping_tiger]

I always thought size didn't matter.

Sorry, my attempt at a joke.

 

[Kempo Guy]

When you say the 'two' samurai swords, I reckon you mean the katana and the wakizashi? Some preferred the tanto over the waki as well.

It was sometimes dependant on the individual (what one is comfortable with) and/or the specific ryu a person may be involved with. In several ryugi there are even a difference in the length of tsuka (handle) of the katana.

KG

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
When you say the 'two' samurai swords, I reckon you mean the katana and the wakizashi?

Yes, I did. Wasn't carrying the two swords the "signature" of the samurai? I wouldn't be surprised to find someone had a tanto in addition, but I thought it was typical to have those two.

As to casting vs. forging, I am not very knowledgeable about the process, but my assumption was that while many aspects of the blade could and would be customized, the swordsmith's tools were such that a standard length(s) was used. Is this not so?

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, I did. Wasn't carrying the two swords the "signature" of the samurai? I wouldn't be surprised to find someone had a tanto in addition, but I thought it was typical to have those two.

As to casting vs. forging, I am not very knowledgeable about the process, but my assumption was that while many aspects of the blade could and would be customized, the swordsmith's tools were such that a standard length(s) was used. Is this not so?

I don't belive there was a standard size to the inch, but there was a change made from the original longer swords wielded on horseback to the now known "katana." If a sword was made "to order" then it probably had a length prescribed by the future owner.

You are correct that 2 swords were dawned. The katana was left at the entrance in safe keeping when entering a household, but the samurai were allowed to wear the wakizashi indoors. This was there "self-defense" weapon.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by MisterMike
You are correct that 2 swords were dawned. The katana was left at the entrance in safe keeping when entering a household, but the samurai were allowed to wear the wakizashi indoors. This was there "self-defense" weapon.

I did not know that! Why then do we not see more iaido or kenjutsu techniques featuring it? The setei kata of iaido include several katana techniques starting from seiza (as though indoors).

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by arnisador
I did not know that! Why then do we not see more iaido or kenjutsu techniques featuring it? The setei kata of iaido include several katana techniques starting from seiza (as though indoors).

IaiJutsu/KenJutsu is concerned with the katana because it is what you would have used in battle. I think starting from seiza is more for practice but it is still applicable from a standing position.

There were practitioners and I'm sure schools that studied the "two swords" strategy but when the arts started focusing on sword practice as a way to refine the self, 1 sword was enough.

 

[Kempo Guy]

MisterMike is definitely correct regarding samurai not wearing katana indoors.

From what I understand the samurai traditionally wore the wakizashi or tanto along with a tessen (iron fan) or sensu (fan) in their obi while indoors. I've also read that many carried concealed weapons (various shuriken in their kimono as well). I've also been told that in many households there were various katana on display throughout the house, which allowed for "easy access" in case of emergency.

BTW, several Sogo Bujutsu have wakizashi and/or tanto -waza in their curriculum. Some also teach techniques with the tessen within their curriculum.

Regarding the waza from seiza, one koryu practitioner (of a sogo bujutsu) explained to me that the basic iai kata within their tradition were done in seiza mostly to allow the beginning students to concentrate on nukitsuke and noto (draw and sheathing) along with the basic angles of cuts without worrying about footwork. Apparantly it is also helpful in strengthening their hips and posture. They also explained that the seated kata were not in the original curriculum of the founder but were added by one of the subsequent generations of headmasters.

On another note, I've also read (and seen) several iai/ken ryuha that do not execute any of their techniques from seiza, but instead use iaigoshi/tatehiza, which are a more traditional way of sitting (while wearing a katana).

KG

 

[Reprobate]

At TSKSR six of the eleven [omote] iai-kata start from iai-goshi.

And we have three gogyo no kodachi kata for advanced students.
The kodachi [or wakizashi] was always worn, but katana were sometimes exchanged with longer weapons [naginata, yari]. One of the variations in 'long weapon kata' features stepping back, after the opponent manages to grasp the long weapon, and pulling the kodachi for defense.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
BTW, several Sogo Bujutsu have wakizashi and/or tanto -waza in their curriculum. Some also teach techniques with the tessen within their curriculum.

Whenever I've seen the wakizashi used it's been in tandem with the long sword, but my experience in this is rather limited. I did know that the tanto was sometimes studied separately.

 

[arnisador]

It looks like kodachi goshindo, precursor of chanbara, stresses the wakizashi.

 

[Kempo Guy]

Whenever I've seen the wakizashi used it's been in tandem with the long sword, but my experience in this is rather limited. I did know that the tanto was sometimes studied separately.

There are many ryuha that teach the use of the short sword.
Remember, one of the reasons for teaching the kodachi (wakidachi, shoto etc.) was that you did not (or was not allowed to) wear your katana indoors. Another reason was for close quarters and/or used for last resort.
The same goes for tanto.

The following are a few ryu-ha that teach the use of kodachi (wakizashi):

Takenouchi-ryu
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu
Araki Ryu
Hontai Yoshin Ryu
Various styles of Itto Ryu
Kashima Shinto Ryu
Shindo Muso Ryu
Suio Ryu
Tatsumi Ryu
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu
Niten Ichi Ryu

As for the tanto, here are a few ryuha that teach the use of tanto:
Takenouchi Ryu
Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu
Tendo Ryu
Araki Ryu
Jikishinkage Ryu
Suio Ryu
Shindo Muso Ryu (I believe there was a ryuha involving tanto that were subsumed by them)
Shidare Yanagi Ryu

KG

 

[arnisador]

I've only ever seen the short sword used in the left hand while the long sword was in the right--more flashy than functional perhaps.

 

[Reprobate]

Originally posted by arnisador
I've only ever seen the short sword used in the left hand while the long sword was in the right--more flashy than functional perhaps.

In Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu there are four 'ryoto' kata, where the kodachi is held in the left hand and the bokken in the right.
In these kata the kodachi works in tandem with the bokken to catch and deflect the opponent's blade; works alone to push/deflect the opponent's blade to create an opening for attack with the bokken; or attacks the wrist to create a distraction while the bokken comes in for the kill.
More functional than flashy, I suppose...

 

[arnisador]

Ah, OK! I was starting to think that when I had seen it used that way it must have been show-offy, but evidently not!

 

[Reprobate]

I guess a lot depends on how you view kenjutsu - as a practitioner or as an onlooker. At least kenjutsu looks impressive - I've had people come up to me after aikido practice, wondering 'why everyone just fell and rolled and knelt whenever someone grabbed their wrist?', and felt sorely tempted to apply some nikkyo on their wrists to let them know the error of their assumption. Instead I mostly smiled and invited them to a free lesson...

Especially with ryoto or kodachi practice, people don't understand the dynamics - that's why studying these kata is reserved for the advanced students.

If you want to see pictures of our dojo and some action, go to www.aikidojo.nl and check out the katori shinto ryu section.