P
Patrick Skerry
Guest
What is your argument whether judo is a sport or a martial art?
good to see this split off...
i think it depends on how you define judo...it's awfully hard to find a gym today that isn't at least a bit sport-oriented....
i think my view on the matter is skewed due to my training...my judo/jujutsu instructor is the same person and i don't practice judo as a sport....do i compete in judo shiai..yes...and they can be a rewarding experience...i view shiai and randori as training tools for testing yourself agains a resisting opponent...not as a sport and not as a real life situation
i think it depends on how you define judo...it's awfully hard to find a gym today that isn't at least a bit sport-oriented....
i think my view on the matter is skewed due to my training...my judo/jujutsu instructor is the same person and i don't practice judo as a sport....do i compete in judo shiai..yes...and they can be a rewarding experience...i view shiai and randori as training tools for testing yourself agains a resisting opponent...not as a sport and not as a real life situation
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Well, you see, that appears to be Dr. Kano's view as well, that a shiai is not a game, but technique testing. Dr. Kano's repetoire of training was: Randori 80%; Kata 17%; and shiai 3% of judo. (see Donn Draeger's article: 'What is Rank?').bignick said:
Jigoro Kano devoted just 3% of his judo to shiai, not the 90% or more as practiced in some American and European judo clubs. I also feel that the inclusion of kata in judo helps take it away from the sporting aspect.
Would you consider all the judo kata competition in the U.S. a sport?
If ballroom dancing were made an Olympic event (don't laugh, look at synchronized swimming), would that make ballroom dancing a sport?
Dr. Kano never once referred to judo as a sport, not even in his paper on judo's contribution to physical education.
I heartily resist everyway I can the sportification of judo, beginning by refusing to wear the baby blue gi.
A
auxprix
Guest
I agree with Kane, it has both sport and Martial Art elements.
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Hello Kane:Kane said:
Thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything, I just want to get to the root of this dilemma, at least for me. The style of argumentation I am using is called Dialectic - to bring out any inherent contradiction within a different argument or opinion. So I am really not being confrontational, even though it might come across that way in a type-written forum.
Now, hockey is definately a sport, but just because it has hip checks doesn't make it a martial art. Same for professional basketball, just because the elbows fly under the net, doesn't make basketball a martial art.
And without a doubt (again, in my opinion), wrestling and boxing have been reduced to a combative sport. I emphasized 'reduced' because so much of the combat effective techniques have been removed from boxing & wrestling to provide entertainment, that they no longer imress anybody but bookies and sportsbetters.
But judo is not hermaphrodite, this martial art does not contain enough sporting elements to be twisted and mutated into a sport without becoming unrecognizable as judo - it will become 'not-judo'.
What would happen if Kendo became an Olympic event? Would Kendo automatically be reduced to a sport? Similar to judo, Kendo contains kata which is integral to its practice. Does this mean that Kata must become an Olympic event also?
Kendo allows the Japanese swordsman to practice his sword techniques safely, just as kata allows the swordsman to practice with a live blade safely. Kendo tournament is just technique testing, just as a judo shiai is technique testing - not a sportive competition to beat the other team and win a trophy.
Judo, Kendo, TKD, and the other martial arts deal with the profound subjects of life & death too closesly to be considered a mere sport! Dr. Kano and the Kodokan have perfected the art of judo, while the IOC and the IJF are attempting to reduce judo into a sport. Despite their efforts, I feel judo is too much of a martial art for them to be successful.
First off, I do not practice kendo, but i hold the people that do in the highest regard...the training i have seen is intense and requires great dedication.....
but from what i understand kendo competition has little to do real life swordmanship...from what i understand, the legal scoring areas in kendo are all to the chest and head...where the people are most heavily armored...obviously, this is to protect the practitioners from getting hurt in competition, but in a real situation the swordsman would aim for the weakest parts...that weren't armored, or very lightly covered...
that's the sport of kendo...
i'm willing to bet that most kendo schools teach striking to the vulnerable areas under controlled conditions such as in class were the risk of injury is less than in a shiai...
from reading your posts i can tell you greatly dislike what competition or sport judo has become so you want to distance yourself from it...i can't say i really disagree with a lot of the arguments you've made...but the truth is that is almost impossible to seperate the sport from judo...because that is what the majority of people are practicing...
this is taken from the book that was just published by Vladimir Putin...
the point is that whatever your feelings on what judo should be or what it has become probably aren't going to change anything...judo is what it is and it is what it has become...
my only advice is to practice the art as you see fit...and in the way the bests serves your ideals
but from what i understand kendo competition has little to do real life swordmanship...from what i understand, the legal scoring areas in kendo are all to the chest and head...where the people are most heavily armored...obviously, this is to protect the practitioners from getting hurt in competition, but in a real situation the swordsman would aim for the weakest parts...that weren't armored, or very lightly covered...
that's the sport of kendo...
i'm willing to bet that most kendo schools teach striking to the vulnerable areas under controlled conditions such as in class were the risk of injury is less than in a shiai...
from reading your posts i can tell you greatly dislike what competition or sport judo has become so you want to distance yourself from it...i can't say i really disagree with a lot of the arguments you've made...but the truth is that is almost impossible to seperate the sport from judo...because that is what the majority of people are practicing...
this is taken from the book that was just published by Vladimir Putin...
he goes on to say
he has more about the time Prof. Kano ripped into a group of competitors after a competition for the poor judo they were practicing in order to win medals...telling them brute strength is not the judo i showed you and how practicing and competing like that would be the end of Kodokan Judo...
the point is that whatever your feelings on what judo should be or what it has become probably aren't going to change anything...judo is what it is and it is what it has become...
my only advice is to practice the art as you see fit...and in the way the bests serves your ideals
My understanding was that Judo was the sport/competitive derivity of JuJiutsu as Mui Tai is the sport derivitive of KrabriKrabrong (sp?) or TKD (as taught through the olympic/governmentally regulated organizations) is a sport derivitive of either the combative form of TKD taught to Korean military or the Kuk Sool/HWarang Do type arts of Korea.
These may be combative in application, like boxing is a 'combative sport' but because people train to apply techniques with tactics designed to be successful specifically for competition, it is sport.
Ballroom dancing....already a competitive 'sporting' event in its own right. Olympic event? Sure why not. We have ice dancing, synchro swimming, extreme/performance based sports like snow boarding (in the tube not the downhill racing in this reference)...would you catch me watching ball room dancing during olympic coverage? Well, I don't watch ice dancing so.....
I can appreciate the artistry (and the skimpy outifits
) of ice dancing or figure skating or ballroom but I would rather watch a hockey game if I had the choice.
These may be combative in application, like boxing is a 'combative sport' but because people train to apply techniques with tactics designed to be successful specifically for competition, it is sport.
Ballroom dancing....already a competitive 'sporting' event in its own right. Olympic event? Sure why not. We have ice dancing, synchro swimming, extreme/performance based sports like snow boarding (in the tube not the downhill racing in this reference)...would you catch me watching ball room dancing during olympic coverage? Well, I don't watch ice dancing so.....
I can appreciate the artistry (and the skimpy outifits
) of ice dancing or figure skating or ballroom but I would rather watch a hockey game if I had the choice.
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Hi Richard,bignick said:
Nice reply, but a little too fatalistic to be a valid argument. See you failed to take into consideration what the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Federation today feel about judo, they would and do totally disagree with the IJF's interpretation, as echoed by Russian President Putin's view toward judo. Don't forget, that in Russia, and other socialist based countries, their Olympic Committee is part of their government apparatus, so they mirror the IOC's opinion on judo. They interpret judo to their own interests and ignore the founder's philosophy.
Both the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Federation are at total odds against the views put forth by Vladimir Putin, Europe, and both the IOC & IJF, regarding the so-called transmorgrification of judo into a mere sport. That is a reason the All Japan Judo Championships, and the Kodokan's Red & White shiai's are fought wearing only white gi's!! Again, Dr. Kano already made the distinction between jidan judo (high judo) and godan judo (low judo).
The problem is going to be another rift within the ranks of judo. The formation of yet another, or many more, judo organizations within the United States and political battles over rank recognition. Already there are distinctions made between sport judo and classical judo. I've already been asked: do you do sport judo or regular judo? I said: What's sport judo? And already the confrontations are happening, for me its when I refuse to don the blue gi. So I've been warned that I won't be allowed to compete, and I warned that I will get a lawyer and sue for discrimination. I won't be forced to wear a blue gi.
I fully intend to practice judo as I see fit, even if it means opening my own non-sanctioned dojo. Thanks!
i didn't say this is the only way it's practiced...
you say judo is a martial art...not a sport...that it can't be both...
but it is practiced as both...i left out some parts of Putin's book that talked about how even today judo is still practiced by some as a pure martial art and in the kodokan the have sections that teach the martial/self defense aspects...because i didn't think they pertained to the discussion
some people practice judo as a pastime...or sport, for fun and excersize and so on...
other practice it very seriously as a martial art
some people fall inbetween...
you say judo is a martial art...not a sport...that it can't be both...
but it is practiced as both...i left out some parts of Putin's book that talked about how even today judo is still practiced by some as a pure martial art and in the kodokan the have sections that teach the martial/self defense aspects...because i didn't think they pertained to the discussion
some people practice judo as a pastime...or sport, for fun and excersize and so on...
other practice it very seriously as a martial art
some people fall inbetween...
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Yes, and that is some of the problems, the recreational judo practitioner is a threat to sport judo.bignick said:
Why? Because they are a big part of long term judo players, but they are not active in competion, nor do they want to be. They are starting to be pressured into sending more of their students into shiai; to teach sport judo instead of kodokan judo.
How do I know? I read through several judo organization websites, such as JudoAmerica; United States Judo, Inc.; USJA; USJF; etc. etc., and all these groups have papers and opinions indicating a concern over the lack of enthusiasm of American judoists for competition. A big fat concern.
Meaning, that there is an awareness of practicing judo soley for the trophies and spectator approval, i.e. big ticket sales. A movement toward professional judoism is obviously in the works. Obnoxiously the International Olympic Committee, in cahoots with the IJF, have blatantly manipulated the contest rules of judo to make the tournaments more appealing and to draw more spectators! In my judo shiai experience, not once have I gone to shiai with the thought of providing entertainment to a spectator, and I couldn't care less if my struggles on the mat are entertaining anybody.
This attitude of sportifying judo is being echoed by American judo organizations in their awareness of the recreational judo practitioner's apathy toward shiai. They (the above mentioned judo groups) want to, in my humble opinion, break that apathy.
Yet, recreational judo is totally tolerated in Japan, to the point where they have 'family dojo's', but the family dojo in the states is being subtley criticized.
So I feel it is impossible to treat judo as a combative sport without making it 'not-judo'. Combative judo is jiu-jitsu, and sport judo is not-judo.
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
I believe the very original purpose of a martial art - to kill - is what prevents it from becoming a sport without some extreme modification to the point of total mutation, unrecognizable as the original art.someguy said:
Boxing and wrestling come to mind as a common example. As practiced by the Greeks and Romans, boxing and wrestling killed, they were martial arts also used on the battlefield for hand-to-hand combat. As practiced in the Olympics, boxing and wrestling are mere shadows of their origins.
Yet the Eastern martial arts, say Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu, are not sports because they contain too many deadly techniques, that if all of them were removed, there would be virtually nothing left. Judo was modified from jiu-jitsu to make it more humane and to comply with the anti-samurai edicts of the Meiji Restoration in Japan (1868-1912). Those edicts absolutely did not sportify or turn the martial arts into a sport! Shiai, whether in kendo or judo, is technique testing, not a game for a trophy.
And finally, the deep philosophical life & death situations inherent in the martial arts, but absent in sports, also helps to exclude judo from sportdom.
I do practice Judo, but only as a secondary martial arts (my primary art is American Kenpo). I did not take up Judo to compete. However, the Judo school I go to do train with a sports view. If they start to insist when I get higher up in the ranks that I must compete, I will probably leave to take JuJutsu elsewhere. There are others who have done the same thing. JuJutsu does not have a sports view as much as Judo.
- Ceicei
- Ceicei
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
That is happening a lot. A lot of people start judo because its a martial art, then as a few years go by and they begin to progress, they are suddenly steered to the competition side of it; sometimes to the exclusion of all else. This is when a lot of people drop out of judo, when it turns into a sport.Ceicei said:
You need competition in judo for increase in rank and as a reality check, but you also need randori and kata. Trouble is, a lot of schools forget kata and use randori as a training method just for competition.
Dr. Kano stipulated: 80% Randori; 17% Kata; and 3% Shiai (competition) for his judo training repetoire, and this is the ratio as it should be practice.
When judo clubs start whipping their students into a win, win, win, frenzy, then its time to leave and look for another judo club - but not to leave judo entirely.
there is no sport view in jujitsu, period...that's one of the reason's Kano created judo...so people could practice their techniques against other people without having to worry about being killed during the competition...which kind of weakens your position on judo not being sportdom...judo is not a sport as i practice it...but let's face it...a shiai is a sporting aspect of modern judo...whether you want to admit it or not...i highly doubt many people enter a shiai with thought of dying on their minds...
we seem to be on the same side of the tracks here...neither believes that judo is sport and trying to turn it into a sport is doing harm to judo...
we seem to have different definitions on what constitutes a sport...there has always been a sporting aspect to judo, in my opinion...
there's a difference between being a sport and having sporting aspects...you be able to compete in judo safely you have to have rules and there has to be a sporting philosophy behind it...otherwise people get hurt...if you have someone in a choke or a submission and they pass out or tap you let go...that's a sporting philosophy...if someone gets a good throw and ippon is called the match is over...the loser doesn't try to get up and continue the fight...he lost the competition
we seem to be on the same side of the tracks here...neither believes that judo is sport and trying to turn it into a sport is doing harm to judo...
we seem to have different definitions on what constitutes a sport...there has always been a sporting aspect to judo, in my opinion...
there's a difference between being a sport and having sporting aspects...you be able to compete in judo safely you have to have rules and there has to be a sporting philosophy behind it...otherwise people get hurt...if you have someone in a choke or a submission and they pass out or tap you let go...that's a sporting philosophy...if someone gets a good throw and ippon is called the match is over...the loser doesn't try to get up and continue the fight...he lost the competition
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Competition is as much a test for the referree as it is for the competitor. The Japanese haven't lost sight of this fact, but the IOC have by trying to make the ref's job easier with the blue gi (and the 'Golden Score'). Neither will improve judo, or improve the quality of referee's in international competition.bignick said:
OP
OP
Patrick Skerry
Guest
And what is the 'strictest' definition of a martial art?bignick said:
Similar threads
- hand2handCombat
- Jujutsu / Judo
