Jigoro Kano and the Gi

Jaz

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Hey Guys, Jigoro Kano not only founded Judo, he also created the gi which is used in many martial arts, such as Karate, Jiu-Jitsu and Taekwondo. Check this video out on the subject and share your thoughts!

 

Chris Parker

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Okay, I'm going to be a bit blunt and direct, so I hope you'll take that in the intended manner...

To be honest, I like your enthusiasm and interest... but don't feel you're really in a position to be an overly credible source... much of the information you give here is pretty much Wikipedia information, and a relatively large proportion is, simply, inaccurate. It's not way out, of course, but still, far from what I would consider authoritative or a good source. In going through your other posts, you've mentioned that you train in BJJ and MMA... and have done videos on the suffragette movement (and the application of martial arts in their protection), Aikido and it's aims, Wing Chun and it's development, a few on Judo and Kano, and one that you describe as the result of "a lot of research" on Yasuke (research? He was mentioned twice in any historical document, with about a sentence each time... what could you have discovered?). The first question is simple... what, exactly, are your qualifications (beyond enthusiasm) in terms of offering informative material here? I mean... your pronunciation of Kano-sensei's name alone is pretty indicative of a lack of familiarity with much of the Japanese side of things, despite your other videos purporting to be informative on the topics... but the second question is probably more relevant here...

Why are you posting these?

To be clear there, I think you might have misunderstood the basic premise of a site like this... don't get me wrong, it's great to have you here, and enthusiasm like this is always good to see, however this is not the way to engage on a forum. This is a place for discussion, questions, communication... videos should, ideally, be utilised to highlight points... by starting, what, 14 threads since you joined in April, and each one of them basically being "please watch my video", you're basically just using this site to feed into your you-tube channel, raising your view-count there and feeding into it's algorithms... which goes against the spirit of a forum. It's a kinda unwritten rule that what you should be doing here is presenting an argument here (or a discussion topic), not using this to funnel views elsewhere. It's really pretty bad form, when all's said and done.

Personally, I'd recommend holding off on posting threads just to get people to watch your videos... instead, try writing your ideas down... come up with questions... join in discussions of topics that interest you... you know, be a part of the forum. In addition to it showing you to be a more productive member of this community (as opposed to using this community to bolster your position in another one), you might just learn a few things... as, simply put, you're not really that far down the track as to be in a position to educate most people here yet.
 

Jusroc

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Hello
Just to correct the information.

Professor Jigorro Kano did not invent the Gi. He did kind of invent the Judo training Gi or suit.

What we know as karate Gi's, actually originally were worn as undergarments, beneath more formal
Japanese Dress (think of how the Samurai dressed when they were not in their armour).

At some early point in Kodokan's development, Jigoro Kano commissioned a company called KuSakura to create a more robust, tough wearing suit which would be durable enough to use when training hard in "randori"(freefighting) grappling and throwing based training.

The Japanese company KuSakura continue to make Gi's to this day and are considered by many as the best manufacturer of Judo Gi's (as well as other martial art suit manufacturers) in the world.

They even make a black Karate Gi, which i was tempted to buy, but think would probably upset some of the Kenpo guys (as i know that some of the old school still have issues with things being Japanese, despite James Mittose being of Japanese birth).

In essence, Judo Gi's are very thick durable Japanese undies.
(I am going to learn to speak japanese so that i can shout "I can see you in your undies"... when running past commercial karate dojo's)
 
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Jaz

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Hello
Just to correct the information.

Professor Jigorro Kano did not invent the Gi. He did kind of invent the Judo training Gi or suit.

What we know as karate Gi's, actually originally were worn as undergarments, beneath more formal
Japanese Dress (think of how the Samurai dressed when they were not in their armour).

At some early point in Kodokan's development, Jigoro Kano commissioned a company called KuSakura to create a more robust, tough wearing suit which would be durable enough to use when training hard in "randori"(freefighting) grappling and throwing based training.

The Japanese company KuSakura continue to make Gi's to this day and are considered by many as the best manufacturer of Judo Gi's (as well as other martial art suit manufacturers) in the world.

They even make a black Karate Gi, which i was tempted to buy, but think would probably upset some of the Kenpo guys (as i know that some of the old school still have issues with things being Japanese, despite James Mittose being of Japanese birth).

In essence, Judo Gi's are very thick durable Japanese undies.
(I am going to learn to speak japanese so that i can shout "I can see you in your undies"... when running past commercial karate dojo's)
Cheers for the info. Yeah, I did hear that even Jigoro Kano experimented using kimono under garments, such as the juban. Funny enough, I did use the kusakura shop website as a source of information for the video. I didn't mention it but did site their website as a reference in the description part of the video on the YouTube page. Here's the full list of sources that I referenced:

The evolution of the j贖d keikogi (gi) The Kan Chronicles簧





I just wanted to ask if you have any further information or clarification as to whether Jigoro Kano did give Gichin Funakoshi his first gi? If you have any information on that, it would be a great help.
 

Jusroc

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Hello.
Although Kano likely met Funakoshi after Funakoshi moved from Okinawa, to teach the Japanese his brand of Okinawan Karate.

I believe Funakoshi's Karate Gi was developed from normal japanese Kimono normally worn under more formal japanese clothing (Hakama/ over kimono etc). Formal Dress as below: (a young Jigoro Kano)

What really happened on 28th October? / IJF.org

Apparently, Funakoshi was influenced by Kano's introduction of requiring all his students to wear a white standardised kimono uniform. I believe that requirement was to help promote unity / togetherness / equality among all practitioners, as well as being practical (for hygiene).

Having a standardised uniform that was the same for all students help people transcend inequality that were more apparent if people wore their normal dress.

Funakoshi, along with many other martial art styles, also followed Kano's introduction of a grade system,
as previous to this, there were just two types of practitioner, student and master.

Black Belts were also invented by Kano.
Interestingly enough, Kano got the idea from the instructors at his local swimming pool.
The Swimming instructors could be recognised because they wore a black band around their swimming costume.

Funny how things develop really.

Also, I remember when GM Parker was around, he also wanted to promote equality among his students, as well as anti-commercialism. I remember when i trained during the 80s, that the labels had to be taken off the gi's and belts.

To avoid people using their uniform to make their poorer colleagues uncomfortable.
Kimono's have been around for many hundreds, if not over a thousand years (in one shape or form).

Karate and Judo Gi's were developed from these.

 
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Jusroc

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another example of Trad Japanese Formal Dress. This time, the son of Aikido founder.
Aikido Founder Quotes. QuotesGram


Fascinating picture of early Okinawan Karate (naha-te) practitioners
see that not all students wear japanese style kimono suits
but some wear more chinese influenced dress

Okinawan Karate known to have been highly influenced by Chinese martial arts
Okinawa being in between Japan and China

Some Japanese Karate exponents forget the original reason why Karate was originally developed.
As a form of freedom fighting against a Japanese Samurai clans invasion of the island
(the Satsuma clan).
miya.renshu.jpeg

 
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Jaz

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another example of Trad Japanese Formal Dress. This time, the son of Aikido founder.
Aikido Founder Quotes. QuotesGram


Fascinating picture of early Okinawan Karate (naha-te) practitioners
see that not all students wear japanese style kimono suits
but some wear more chinese influenced dress

Okinawan Karate known to have been highly influenced by Chinese martial arts
Okinawa being in between Japan and China

Some Japanese Karate exponents forget the original reason why Karate was originally developed.
As a form of freedom fighting against a Japanese Samurai clans invasion of the island
(the Satsuma clan).
miya.renshu.jpeg

another example of Trad Japanese Formal Dress. This time, the son of Aikido founder.
Aikido Founder Quotes. QuotesGram


Fascinating picture of early Okinawan Karate (naha-te) practitioners
see that not all students wear japanese style kimono suits
but some wear more chinese influenced dress

Okinawan Karate known to have been highly influenced by Chinese martial arts
Okinawa being in between Japan and China

Some Japanese Karate exponents forget the original reason why Karate was originally developed.
As a form of freedom fighting against a Japanese Samurai clans invasion of the island
(the Satsuma clan).
miya.renshu.jpeg

Just a quick correction. That first picture is Morihiro Saito. Although a student of Morihei Ueshiba, he wasn't his son. Nevertheless, the point of your post was to highlight the clothing. So, cheers for that.
 
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Jaz

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Hello.
Although Kano likely met Funakoshi after Funakoshi moved from Okinawa, to teach the Japanese his brand of Okinawan Karate.

I believe Funakoshi's Karate Gi was developed from normal japanese Kimono normally worn under more formal japanese clothing (Hakama/ over kimono etc). Formal Dress as below: (a young Jigoro Kano)

What really happened on 28th October? / IJF.org

Apparently, Funakoshi was influenced by Kano's introduction of requiring all his students to wear a white standardised kimono uniform. I believe that requirement was to help promote unity / togetherness / equality among all practitioners, as well as being practical (for hygiene).

Having a standardised uniform that was the same for all students help people transcend inequality that were more apparent if people wore their normal dress.

Funakoshi, along with many other martial art styles, also followed Kano's introduction of a grade system,
as previous to this, there were just two types of practitioner, student and master.

Black Belts were also invented by Kano.
Interestingly enough, Kano got the idea from the instructors at his local swimming pool.
The Swimming instructors could be recognised because they wore a black band around their swimming costume.

Funny how things develop really.

Also, I remember when GM Parker was around, he also wanted to promote equality among his students, as well as anti-commercialism. I remember when i trained during the 80s, that the labels had to be taken off the gi's and belts.

To avoid people using their uniform to make their poorer colleagues uncomfortable.
Kimono's have been around for many hundreds, if not over a thousand years (in one shape or form).

Karate and Judo Gi's were developed from these.

Is that where Kano got the idea for black belts - from swimming instructors. That's a great piece of info. Where did you find that out from?
 
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Jaz

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Okay, I'm going to be a bit blunt and direct, so I hope you'll take that in the intended manner...

To be honest, I like your enthusiasm and interest... but don't feel you're really in a position to be an overly credible source... much of the information you give here is pretty much Wikipedia information, and a relatively large proportion is, simply, inaccurate. It's not way out, of course, but still, far from what I would consider authoritative or a good source. In going through your other posts, you've mentioned that you train in BJJ and MMA... and have done videos on the suffragette movement (and the application of martial arts in their protection), Aikido and it's aims, Wing Chun and it's development, a few on Judo and Kano, and one that you describe as the result of "a lot of research" on Yasuke (research? He was mentioned twice in any historical document, with about a sentence each time... what could you have discovered?). The first question is simple... what, exactly, are your qualifications (beyond enthusiasm) in terms of offering informative material here? I mean... your pronunciation of Kano-sensei's name alone is pretty indicative of a lack of familiarity with much of the Japanese side of things, despite your other videos purporting to be informative on the topics... but the second question is probably more relevant here...

Why are you posting these?

To be clear there, I think you might have misunderstood the basic premise of a site like this... don't get me wrong, it's great to have you here, and enthusiasm like this is always good to see, however this is not the way to engage on a forum. This is a place for discussion, questions, communication... videos should, ideally, be utilised to highlight points... by starting, what, 14 threads since you joined in April, and each one of them basically being "please watch my video", you're basically just using this site to feed into your you-tube channel, raising your view-count there and feeding into it's algorithms... which goes against the spirit of a forum. It's a kinda unwritten rule that what you should be doing here is presenting an argument here (or a discussion topic), not using this to funnel views elsewhere. It's really pretty bad form, when all's said and done.

Personally, I'd recommend holding off on posting threads just to get people to watch your videos... instead, try writing your ideas down... come up with questions... join in discussions of topics that interest you... you know, be a part of the forum. In addition to it showing you to be a more productive member of this community (as opposed to using this community to bolster your position in another one), you might just learn a few things... as, simply put, you're not really that far down the track as to be in a position to educate most people here yet.
Okay, so I'm gonna try and answer the points you raised. Firstly, in regards to posting my videos in order to increase my views. I thought that a view only counts if the viewer watches the video on YouTube. I didn't think that I was posting a link that takes you straight to the YouTube page but, instead, just opens the video up on the Martialtalk thread. However, if someone finds my video interesting and wants to check out my channel, of course I'm gonna be happy about that.
If my thread actually took you to my channel, you'd see that I post my references. I looked at quite a few sources for this video but I didn't check out Wikipedia. If, as you say, the information I have given is 'pretty much Wikipedia information' then I'm feeling a bit cheated that I just didn't check Wikipedia, instead of reading the sources that I referenced.
On the issue about what makes me an authoritative source, or what are my qualifications, I'd like to ask you a question - what qualifications do I need? There's a video on my channel called 'Martial Arts Bringing Together Parents and Kids'. At the end of the presentation on the topic, I clearly state the words "this is Martial Arts Addict, not Martial Arts Expert." So, I'll answer as to what qualifies me as a Martial Arts Addict, as that is all I have referred to myself as. In fact, I mention what I think a martial arts addict is at the beginning of my 'Yasuke' video. I just love martial arts, I love talking about martial arts, I love reading about martial arts, I love making videos about martial arts, I love watching videos about martial arts, I love collecting books and magazines about martial arts, I love training in martial arts. If I could, I would train in as many martial arts as possible. I'd love to do them all but that's impossible. So, instead, I read up about them and find out as much as I can about their history, philosophy, techniques etc. I thought it would be nice to share what I've found out by posting videos on a YouTube channel... for people who love martial arts. I thank everyone who comments on my videos - including people who say that my information is incorrect. That's partly why I've made the videos - so, I can learn more about the information I'm presenting - not because I think that I'm an authority or expert on the topic. However, if I read a book or an interview where a master gave an explanation about the meaning behind their martial art, why do I need any specific qualification to have the right to share it with others? If you want my academic qualifications, which I'm not sure why they count for anything, I have a BA (Hons) degree in Philosophy from Birkbeck College, University of London. In regards to my martial arts training, I've been training in Wing Chun Kung Fu since 1992, starting at Victor Kan's school. I've competed in Kickboxing and won the National Championship in 1998, having trained under Andrei Daltrey and Gary Turner, during the late 90s. I've trained in Judo, starting in 1998 at the Camberley Judo Club and then in 2009 at EB Phoenix Judo Club under Winston Gordon. I've been training in BJJ, five to six days a week, since 2013. I've also, as you noted, trained in MMA, as this was available at the BJJ club that I train at. Just to let you know, I received my purple belt in BJJ in 2019, after 6 years of training, from Professor Helio Soneca Moriera. I've also had the privilege to train with a BJJ coral belt. That's someone who has been a black belt for over 30 years. In regards to teaching, I'm listed as an instructor on the New School BJJ website. I also teach Wing Chun Kung Fu. So, although not an expert, I do have some knowledge on martial arts.
So, why do I post videos on this forum? I want to see what people think of my information. If they think it's good, as some have, that's fantastic. If they think it's bad, as many have, then it's still great - I get to learn about their opinion or knowledge on the matter. I enjoy reading the threads on this forum. I don't really say anything on those threads, as that's not how I like to do things. I'd much rather post my videos and see what people say (why you would then ask me to get involved with the discussions, after implying that I don't know much, is a bit confusing). I thought I was doing something good, by sharing it with other martial arts addicts.
As a further note, I'm not trying to 'educate' anyone and neither do I think I am an authority on martial arts. I'm merely raising awareness about certain topics in martial arts. I made a video about British Folk Wrestling styles. The grandson of one of the wrestlers I talk about commented on my video saying that it was great to see his grandfather mentioned. He's been in touch with me to tell me about a film about his grandfather that he is working on. Should I take the video down because YOU believe that I don't have the qualifications to justify my video presentations? In addition, one of the few teachers of Scottish Back Hold Wrestling has said that he is more than happy for me to do a video with him about this particular style of wrestling. He's happy because he sees that I'm trying to build awareness of this style. Should I tell him that I won't bother because YOU think that I'm not qualified to do so? By the way, who actually qualifies you to be the decision maker on who has an authority to share information or not? What makes you think you know any better. I mean, I saw a post where you referenced BJJ as 'Basically just judo' but with a Brazilian flavour. I mean, yes BJJ is a development of early Judo. However, it's not the same thing. The rules, for example, are different. You can't foot lock, heel hook, knee bar or shoulder lock in Judo. You can in BJJ. A throw which lands an opponent on their back with impetus scores an instant win in Judo. It's only two points in BJJ, then you carry on. You don't get 3 points for passing the guard in judo or 2 points for a knee on belly either. But you do in BJJ. I've been doing BJJ now for 8 years. I wouldn't stand a chance in a Judo competition. Oh, and before you ask, I have competed in BJJ, so I do know what I'm talking about here. Yes, there is a cross over. However, if I want to become good at Judo, I won't be able to do this training at a BJJ club - I've got to train in Judo at a Judo club and vice versa. So, BJJ is not 'Basically just judo'.
As a last thought, to say to someone 'you might just learn a few things' is extremely patronising. It sounds like you think of yourself as a bit of an expert and an authority... not me. Anyway, cheers for commenting on my thread.
 

Jusroc

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Is that where Kano got the idea for black belts - from swimming instructors. That's a great piece of info. Where did you find that out from?
Hi, I read that bit of fact from a biography Jigoro Kano's. I think it is common knowledge in Judo circles.
I am not sure as to whether he introduced the coloured belt system, although I believe he did have a Student grading system.

The Kodokan, to this day, has only two belt colours (apart from for master grades)
and that is black or white. If a brown belt were to go to train at the Kodokan, they would have
to wear a white belt.
 
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Jusroc

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Just a quick correction. That first picture is Morihiro Saito. Although a student of Morihei Ueshiba, he wasn't his son. Nevertheless, the point of your post was to highlight the clothing. So, cheers for that.
Apologies, yes, you are completely correct. The photo is not Aikido O-Sensei's son but a leading student and now leader in the Aikido world. My mistake. Thank you for correcting me.
 

Jusroc

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Okay, so I'm gonna try and answer the points you raised. Firstly, in regards to posting my videos in order to increase my views. I thought that a view only counts if the viewer watches the video on YouTube. I didn't think that I was posting a link that takes you straight to the YouTube page but, instead, just opens the video up on the Martialtalk thread. However, if someone finds my video interesting and wants to check out my channel, of course I'm gonna be happy about that.
If my thread actually took you to my channel, you'd see that I post my references. I looked at quite a few sources for this video but I didn't check out Wikipedia. If, as you say, the information I have given is 'pretty much Wikipedia information' then I'm feeling a bit cheated that I just didn't check Wikipedia, instead of reading the sources that I referenced.
On the issue about what makes me an authoritative source, or what are my qualifications, I'd like to ask you a question - what qualifications do I need? There's a video on my channel called 'Martial Arts Bringing Together Parents and Kids'. At the end of the presentation on the topic, I clearly state the words "this is Martial Arts Addict, not Martial Arts Expert." So, I'll answer as to what qualifies me as a Martial Arts Addict, as that is all I have referred to myself as. In fact, I mention what I think a martial arts addict is at the beginning of my 'Yasuke' video. I just love martial arts, I love talking about martial arts, I love reading about martial arts, I love making videos about martial arts, I love watching videos about martial arts, I love collecting books and magazines about martial arts, I love training in martial arts. If I could, I would train in as many martial arts as possible. I'd love to do them all but that's impossible. So, instead, I read up about them and find out as much as I can about their history, philosophy, techniques etc. I thought it would be nice to share what I've found out by posting videos on a YouTube channel... for people who love martial arts. I thank everyone who comments on my videos - including people who say that my information is incorrect. That's partly why I've made the videos - so, I can learn more about the information I'm presenting - not because I think that I'm an authority or expert on the topic. However, if I read a book or an interview where a master gave an explanation about the meaning behind their martial art, why do I need any specific qualification to have the right to share it with others? If you want my academic qualifications, which I'm not sure why they count for anything, I have a BA (Hons) degree in Philosophy from Birkbeck College, University of London. In regards to my martial arts training, I've been training in Wing Chun Kung Fu since 1992, starting at Victor Kan's school. I've competed in Kickboxing and won the National Championship in 1998, having trained under Andrei Daltrey and Gary Turner, during the late 90s. I've trained in Judo, starting in 1998 at the Camberley Judo Club and then in 2009 at EB Phoenix Judo Club under Winston Gordon. I've been training in BJJ, five to six days a week, since 2013. I've also, as you noted, trained in MMA, as this was available at the BJJ club that I train at. Just to let you know, I received my purple belt in BJJ in 2019, after 6 years of training, from Professor Helio Soneca Moriera. I've also had the privilege to train with a BJJ coral belt. That's someone who has been a black belt for over 30 years. In regards to teaching, I'm listed as an instructor on the New School BJJ website. I also teach Wing Chun Kung Fu. So, although not an expert, I do have some knowledge on martial arts.
So, why do I post videos on this forum? I want to see what people think of my information. If they think it's good, as some have, that's fantastic. If they think it's bad, as many have, then it's still great - I get to learn about their opinion or knowledge on the matter. I enjoy reading the threads on this forum. I don't really say anything on those threads, as that's not how I like to do things. I'd much rather post my videos and see what people say (why you would then ask me to get involved with the discussions, after implying that I don't know much, is a bit confusing). I thought I was doing something good, by sharing it with other martial arts addicts.
As a further note, I'm not trying to 'educate' anyone and neither do I think I am an authority on martial arts. I'm merely raising awareness about certain topics in martial arts. I made a video about British Folk Wrestling styles. The grandson of one of the wrestlers I talk about commented on my video saying that it was great to see his grandfather mentioned. He's been in touch with me to tell me about a film about his grandfather that he is working on. Should I take the video down because YOU believe that I don't have the qualifications to justify my video presentations? In addition, one of the few teachers of Scottish Back Hold Wrestling has said that he is more than happy for me to do a video with him about this particular style of wrestling. He's happy because he sees that I'm trying to build awareness of this style. Should I tell him that I won't bother because YOU think that I'm not qualified to do so? By the way, who actually qualifies you to be the decision maker on who has an authority to share information or not? What makes you think you know any better. I mean, I saw a post where you referenced BJJ as 'Basically just judo' but with a Brazilian flavour. I mean, yes BJJ is a development of early Judo. However, it's not the same thing. The rules, for example, are different. You can't foot lock, heel hook, knee bar or shoulder lock in Judo. You can in BJJ. A throw which lands an opponent on their back with impetus scores an instant win in Judo. It's only two points in BJJ, then you carry on. You don't get 3 points for passing the guard in judo or 2 points for a knee on belly either. But you do in BJJ. I've been doing BJJ now for 8 years. I wouldn't stand a chance in a Judo competition. Oh, and before you ask, I have competed in BJJ, so I do know what I'm talking about here. Yes, there is a cross over. However, if I want to become good at Judo, I won't be able to do this training at a BJJ club - I've got to train in Judo at a Judo club and vice versa. So, BJJ is not 'Basically just judo'.
As a last thought, to say to someone 'you might just learn a few things' is extremely patronising. It sounds like you think of yourself as a bit of an expert and an authority... not me. Anyway, cheers for commenting on my thread.
Hello. Hope you don't mind me commenting on the topic.
I trained in BJJ for a short time (like a year) and Judo for a few more years.

I would just like to say that I agree with your statement that Judo and BJJ are a fair amount different.
Especially if comparing today's competition Judo with BJJ.

Sure. quiet a lot of the techniques in BJJ came from Judo, but BJJ has a different take on a lot of these techniques, in particular, I love the fact that BJJ can be adapted to be used against various forms of strikers.

As this is something that modern Judo-ka do not have, at least to the level of BJJ exponants.

I think that Judo and BJJ are ideal styles that go together.
As top Judo instructors may know a little more about some of the throws that aren't used as much in BJJ,
while BJJ generally have a much more superior ground game but, all so importantly. are trained to fight
off the mat as well as on the mat, i.e in self defence.

Not that I think Judo could be used for self defence. as for sure, quiet a lot of the Judo techniques
can be adapted if the Judoka can get used to people throwing punches and kicks at them.
Which I am sure many would be able to, but would need some training (in my opinion).

Well, sounds like being a national kickboxing champ, being taught by Gary Turner (who I know is an excellent fighter in kickboxing and Judo), being taught by good quality BJJ and Judo experts.
Well, I imagine you can't go too wrong with that. Good for you.

I hope you do well. I have seen some of Winston Churchill's fights, and he's good.
Chamberly is regarded as the best club in Britain by many. Where a lot of the Brit squad train.

sounds like a recipe for success! cool!
 
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Jaz

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Hi, I read that bit of fact from a biography Jigoro Kano's. I think it is common knowledge in Judo circles.
I am not sure as to whether he introduced the coloured belt system, although I believe he did have a Student grading system.

The Kodokan, to this day, has only two belt colours (apart from for master grades)
and that is black or white. If a brown belt were to go to train at the Kodokan, they would have
to wear a white belt.
Yeah, Jigoro Kano introduced a system of white belt for Kyu grades and the black belt for Dan grades. I think the use of adding additional coloured belts for the Kyu grades might have started in Europe. Minosuke Kawaishi introduced the coloured belts system in Europe, possibly after seeing them being used in the Budokwai in London.
 

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Sorry to bombard this thread with posts

Not sure which technique you are referring to with regards to what you describe as a heel hook.
As i just done a quick search on youtube, which came up with loads of different techniques that relate to heel hooking in one way or another.

One of the techniques that the Gracies refer to as a heel hook take down is a Judo technique that is known as Ko-Soto-Gake or Ko-Soto-Gari.(rear outer block / rear outer reap)....

*classic example of this technique can be found in the Fight between Fedor and the super tall Japanese Kickboxing champ Hong Man Choi.

These techniques are still legal and can be used from different grips including a bare hug.

What i like about this type of heel hook is that once you put the hug on, if you are fighting UFC or BJJ
doesn't matter if you fall forward or backward. As backward, you end up in the guard, forward, you end up in the mount. Cool. Great for street self defence too.

In Judo though, you would really need to fall to what is your forward, or learn to fall backward onto your side, before moving to the guard, or you will get an ippon scored against you! doh!

Which some BJJ guys may think is BS, however, i don't know if you have ever been thrown with impetus and force onto tarmac or concrete, i mean, even grass, if you bang your head after you fall (which can happen)
then it is game over.

I have had ribs broken when being thrown on 40 mm comp judo mats, during technical practice and without impetus. Would hate to feel what that feels like when thrown on concrete. Imagine if i did get thrown with a skilled judo throw onto concrete, i probably wouldn't be in any condition to keep on fighting to the death....

I believe that is why the Japanese consider a good powerful throw to equal ippon rather than the start of the fight. Yep Concrete and tarmac a lot less friendly than 40 or 50 mm mats, or even a boxing ring.
 
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Jusroc

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Yeah, Jigoro Kano introduced a system of white belt for Kyu grades and the black belt for Dan grades. I think the use of adding additional coloured belts for the Kyu grades might have started in Europe. Minosuke Kawaishi introduced the coloured belts system in Europe, possibly after seeing them being used in the Budokwai in London.
The British Judo Association uses a belt system that is a little different to many other countries.
With red belt being the main novice grade (and white being ungraded)

I can't remember exactly as to whether it was the Budokwai who, under orders, introduced this belt system.
But know that that is why the BJA have kept this order, out of respect.
 
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Jaz

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Sorry to bombard this thread with posts

Not sure which technique you are referring to with regards to what you describe as a heel hook.
As i just done a quick search on youtube, which came up with loads of different techniques that relate to heel hooking in one way or another.

One of the techniques that the Gracies refer to as a heel hook take down is a Judo technique that is known as Ko-Soto-Gake or Ko-Soto-Gari.(rear outer block / rear outer reap)....

*classic example of this technique can be found in the Fight between Fedor and the super tall Japanese Kickboxing champ Hong Man Choi.

These techniques are still legal and can be used from different grips including a bare hug.

What i like about this type of heel hook is that once you put the hug on, if you are fighting UFC or BJJ
doesn't matter if you fall forward or backward. As backward, you end up in the guard, forward, you end up in the mount. Cool. Great for street self defence too.

In Judo though, you would really need to fall to what is your forward, or learn to fall backward onto your side, before moving to the guard, or you will get an ippon scored against you! doh!

Which some BJJ guys may think is BS, however, i don't know if you have ever been thrown with impetus and force onto tarmac or concrete, i mean, even grass, if you bang your head after you fall (which can happen)
then it is game over.

I have had ribs broken when being thrown on 40 mm comp judo mats, during technical practice and without impetus. Would hate to feel what that feels like when thrown on concrete. Imagine if i did get thrown with a skilled judo throw onto concrete, i probably wouldn't be in any condition to keep on fighting to the death....

I believe that is why the Japanese consider a good powerful throw to equal ippon rather than the start of the fight. Yep Concrete and tarmac a lot less friendly than 40 or 50 mm mats, or even a boxing ring.
The heel hook I was referring to is a type of foot lock. It's not usually allowed in Gi BJJ matches. You tend to see it more in No-Gi. In fact, when I've been taught it, it's always in a No-Gi session. In BJJ Gi comps, it's the straight foot lock that's allowed. You can do the knee bar in both Gi and No-Gi comps though.

I definitely agree that getting thrown by a judoka on concrete will definitely finish you off. I love Judo but, at 47 years old, it took it's toll on my knees. I ended up with a torn ACL. BJJ allowed me to still practice grappling but with less emphasis on throws. Funny enough though, I have trained quite a bit in wrestling style takedowns, such as the single and double leg takedown. These aren't allowed in Judo, as you're not allowed to attack the legs anymore - unless you're using your leg or foot, of course. You just can't grab the legs with your hands in Judo anymore. But, I completely agree, judo throws are a fight finisher outside of the dojo. I still spar guys who cross train in Judo and BJJ. I get scared to do any stand up against them because they're so good at breaking your balance (kuzushi) entering under your centre of gravity and then throwing you - all in an instant, that one minute your standing, a split second later, you're on your back looking up at the ceiling. I do like hitting the single leg though.
 

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I enjoy the videos. I never got the impression they are intended to be meticulously researched documentaries. I think they're interesting projects, and I applaud you for putting yourself out there and starting some interesting discussions.

And for what it's worth, BJJ isn't "basically just judo" though I understand why folks say that. I don't mind it, personally, as it's a shorthand to pointing out that the two styles have much in common. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. And it's consistent with another BJJ truth, which is "if it works, it's BJJ." I remember asking my coach about catch wrestling, and he said, "It's not catch wrestling. It's all just BJJ." :)
 
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Jaz

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I enjoy the videos. I never got the impression they are intended to be meticulously researched documentaries. I think they're interesting projects, and I applaud you for putting yourself out there and starting some interesting discussions.

And for what it's worth, BJJ isn't "basically just judo" though I understand why folks say that. I don't mind it, personally, as it's a shorthand to pointing out that the two styles have much in common. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. And it's consistent with another BJJ truth, which is "if it works, it's BJJ." I remember asking my coach about catch wrestling, and he said, "It's not catch wrestling. It's all just BJJ." :)
Cheers Steve!!!
 
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