Is this a legitimate gym or mcdojo

dvcochran

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Great 1 out of thousands over hundreds of years.
Having been to Japan and lived there most Japanese are not fluent in English nor will put their techniques in English if anything it would be Japanese English, its just odd. I have never been to a dojo in Japan and the sensei spoke everything in English, he might say one or 2 words in English to help you as in most cases you may be the only English speaking guy there but since if he is popular and has people all over the world he will most likely request you learn Japanese.

One of my Japanese teachers commented on a group that only uses English terminology she said they can never learn the deeper essence of the art as it is intended because they do not speak or read Japanese. If you really want to speak English only in your school I have said many times do it, it is your business, my students are glad I teach them the language, the history, the culture and tradition that gives them a deeper understanding that someone who doesn't speak the language. I study Japanese arts and Aiki specific arts too, I am familiar with Nihon Goshin Aikido and how it is one of the only Aiki arts that uses English specifically because almost every other organization for Aikido, Daito ryu, Hakko ryu,Nami heiho around the world use Japanese terminology.
True enough; but your experience is not typical. I fully understand your perspective based on having lived in Japan.
But the language is Not the technique. Frankly, the "deeper essence" comment is the kind of crap that has hurt and held back many styles and schools for decades.
 

Tenshin

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Someone in that gym should be able to fight. And should have had fight. Someone in that gym should have been able to teach someone else to fight and they should have had fights.

And that experience should be the model that the instruction is based off.

Because then you can't tell at least one component of self defence works. Which is why ring fighting is important to development.

From there you can take what works and adjust it to achieve a different goal.

So MMA has a different goal to muay thai. But because fighting works.It is not a big leap to adjust the goal.

This is the same when we talk about the transition from a ring sport to self defence.

But when your fighting doesn't work in mma or muay thai or anywhere anyone can see. You are going to have a very hard time adjusting that to self defence.
Again you keep using the ring as the measuring stick.
I explained to you 2 schools of thought. Some think you should have had fights in a ring some say you do not.
I think you do not need to fight in a ring if you are sparing, and your goal is not to compete or fight in a ring.
I also said the difference between fighting and self defense I have said they are not the same thing, fighting, the goal is to win and beat your opponent.
Self defense is being able to get home safe and in some cases you do not engage with an opponent. I teach self defense not fighting.

Well if I was a bouncer, and have been in street fights, have been in fights with guns and knives would you want me to teach you self defense for a street encounter or a guy
who fought in a ring? If you want to be a ring fighter go learn how to fight in a ring, if you want to be able to use your Muay for someone who pulls a knife on you train with the guy who bounces and has dealt with a knife before.

Most MMA guys do not know how to deal with multiple attackers, knife defense, gun defense they do not train for it. Most MMA gyms, BJJ gyms train for competitions with rules depending on which art you are doing. Can you modify it for self defense sure IF you know how to modify it for self defense which goes back to you need a guy who has been in those situations to teach it. Your coach who has never been in a knife fight can not say well you do a kimura and that is how you disarm someone with a knife.

I know your stance is Ring, BJJ, MMA and all else that does not follow this formula is wrong, I know that is your mantra you have rehashed this on this forum to almost every member through the last 16 years since you have been here, I have read your posts.
 

Tenshin

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True enough; but your experience is not typical. I fully understand your perspective based on having lived in Japan.
But the language is Not the technique. Frankly, the "deeper essence" comment is the kind of crap that has hurt and held back many styles and schools for decades.
Kesa Giri is the technique used in Kenjutsu. In English people might say it is a Downward diagonal cut. however the cut is to cut a Kesa this has a meaning behind it. This term if you know it in one kenjutsu school the meaning can also be used in another. Downward Diagonal cut might mean something else in english in another kenjutsu school but Kesa giri remains the same meaning in all kenjutsu schools
 

drop bear

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Again you keep using the ring as the measuring stick.
I explained to you 2 schools of thought. Some think you should have had fights in a ring some say you do not.
I think you do not need to fight in a ring if you are sparing, and your goal is not to compete or fight in a ring.
I also said the difference between fighting and self defense I have said they are not the same thing, fighting, the goal is to win and beat your opponent.
Self defense is being able to get home safe and in some cases you do not engage with an opponent. I teach self defense not fighting.

Well if I was a bouncer, and have been in street fights, have been in fights with guns and knives would you want me to teach you self defense for a street encounter or a guy
who fought in a ring? If you want to be a ring fighter go learn how to fight in a ring, if you want to be able to use your Muay for someone who pulls a knife on you train with the guy who bounces and has dealt with a knife before.

Most MMA guys do not know how to deal with multiple attackers, knife defense, gun defense they do not train for it. Most MMA gyms, BJJ gyms train for competitions with rules depending on which art you are doing. Can you modify it for self defense sure IF you know how to modify it for self defense which goes back to you need a guy who has been in those situations to teach it. Your coach who has never been in a knife fight can not say well you do a kimura and that is how you disarm someone with a knife.

I know your stance is Ring, BJJ, MMA and all else that does not follow this formula is wrong, I know that is your mantra you have rehashed this on this forum to almost every member through the last 16 years since you have been here, I have read your posts.

Then you find a MMA gym that can do knife defence, gun defence and so on.

I am not sure how you are arriving at this either or issue.

For example the concepts used to cut off a person in the ring are the same concepts used to cut off multiple oponants.
 

Tenshin

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If I do not respond to your message it is most likely I have you on ignore
 

oftheherd11

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It was difficult for me to. Learning how to say the words weren't too difficult for me, but learning the sentence structure was more difficult than I could ever imagine. My biggest mistake was trying to learn a language using English sentence structure as a guide. I would like to take Korean again in the future or try Chinese again, being that there is more opportunity to be around people who speak it.

Overly simplified, but Korean does indeed have a sentence structure totally different from English. English and other languages that give meaning by the distribution of words in the sentence, usually with the subject being before the verb, and the object being after the verb. Korean gives meaning by word helpers which follow some words to identify subjects, and objects by those helpers, not by where they are in the sentence.

And you are not alone in trying to sort that out. :(

And yet Korean is not hard to learn. I know because I have seen so many little kids learn Korean without even a little problem, while I struggled terribly. :p

Chinese will have its own difficulties since it is a tonal language. You can have the same combination of letters, but different meanings based on the tone, such as a rising tone, falling tone, or whatever. I think Chinese has 4 tones. Vietnamese has 5 tones in the south, and 6 in the north. Try that on for size. :oops:
 

oftheherd11

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When you learn an art you should learn the terminology of the art.
When I study Muay Thai and Muay Boran the terminology is in Thai, When I do Karate the terms are in Japanese. When I teach we use the terminology of the arts language and not English

I think one would have to become fluent in the native tongue and even then one might require some added instruction in the philosophy proposed by the words combined with the object of the technique. Of course you are free to agree or disagree.
 

JowGaWolf

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One of my Japanese teachers commented on a group that only uses English terminology she said they can never learn the deeper essence of the art as it is intended because they do not speak or read Japanese.
Sounds like a cultural issue to me and not a Martial Arts one.

Agree, however speaking a technique and applying/performing a technique are two completely different things. It is fine if they are closely connected by a persons/schools/systems preference but not at all necessary to the learning.
You are never going to defeat an opponent by loudly saying 'front kick' or 'ap chagi'.
I am sure I use Korean terminology technical terms more than our GM does in class. But when he goes into detailed explanation get ready for a ton of Korean term reference.
I was just curious if he would feel the same way about the quality of instruction if a person only knew the technique names in the native language but was clueless of how to actually use them. The OP didn't give me a yes or no answer to that question.
 

JowGaWolf

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And yet Korean is not hard to learn. I know because I have seen so many little kids learn Korean without even a little problem, while I struggled terribly.
That's why I think I'll do better a second time around. I just need to ignore the English sentence structure. Treat it more like slang which often destroys English sentence structure. I need to just speak it and not try to use English as a guide to create the sentence.

I've been watching a lot of Korean shows and I try to repeat phrase and tones that I hear. I do the same with Japanese shows. I also watch kid shows that teach Korean kids how to speak Korean. I'll give a good try for a year and see what happens. lol

I'm tone death so that's a disadvantage of me. It should make for some interesting conversations though. ha ha ha.
 

Tenshin

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I think one would have to become fluent in the native tongue and even then one might require some added instruction in the philosophy proposed by the words combined with the object of the technique. Of course you are free to agree or disagree.
For my classes we count in Japanese for Japanese arts and Chinese in Chinese arts. We use in our syllabus Japanese terms like kote Gaeshi, ippon, gyaku nothing were a person has to speak a sentence, if you walk in most Karate, Aikido, Judo schools they all use Japanese terminology from mawashi geri, to ikkyo, to ippon seoi nage.
When in the last 40 years did every dojo around the world stop using the terminology and started just using english words to replace them?
 

JowGaWolf

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He is an exceptional coach.
Show me any coach that says footwork is important then proceeds to train it often, and I'll be first in line to train under that person. I never knew how bad some people's footwork was until I watched those Kung Fu Masters vs MMA videos. That was the first time I've seen panicked footwork. Which is a big thing because I have video of kids sparring and taking hard shots, but they don't have panicked footwork. So to see that from someone who claims to have 20+ years of experience is really shocking. You can see videos of One legged fighters with better footwork.

A lot of what I heard in that video is stuff that I've always have heard from people who actually apply their skill sets. From soccer to basketball and everything in between they all drill footwork regularly. If I go to a school and they do nothing for footwork, then I would walk out of the school. I wouldn't care how much they knew because it would be weak without good footwork. Footwork is so important that if someone ask me to only choose 1 to teach for the first 3 months, I would choose footwork easily.
 

dvcochran

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Kesa Giri is the technique used in Kenjutsu. In English people might say it is a Downward diagonal cut. however the cut is to cut a Kesa this has a meaning behind it. This term if you know it in one kenjutsu school the meaning can also be used in another. Downward Diagonal cut might mean something else in english in another kenjutsu school but Kesa giri remains the same meaning in all kenjutsu schools
Welcome to translation blips. It can really get confusing going to different Korean schools. There is not a truly universal language/word set that I am aware of. Languages like English get really sloppy. Pick up a language and move it 6,000 miles and time and human influence will definitely affect it.
I know just enough Japanese to think the term has something to do with a sword.
 

JowGaWolf

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Then you find a MMA gym that can do knife defence, gun defence and so on.

I am not sure how you are arriving at this either or issue.

For example the concepts used to cut off a person in the ring are the same concepts used to cut off multiple oponants.
That's pretty good. Sound like everyone was getting a good workout there going against multiple people.
 

JowGaWolf

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Welcome to translation blips. It can really get confusing going to different Korean schools. There is not a truly universal language/word set that I am aware of. Languages like English get really sloppy. Pick up a language and move it 6,000 miles and time and human influence will definitely affect it.
I know just enough Japanese to think the term has something to do with a sword.
I agree with sloppy English. US English absorbs a lot of other languages and becomes English. Then we make up a lot of words and phrasess which doesn't help.
 

isshinryuronin

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Regarding the use of native language terminology - this is not restricted to the Oriental martial arts. European fencing uses French. Opera uses Italian. Zoologic and medical nomenclature uses mostly Latin. Geology uses much German. Flight controllers use English. This takes care of the problem of communicating internationally, as well as paying homage to the country which historically popularized the discipline. In the US, we have hoagies, subs, and poor boy sandwiches - they are all the same thing, but regionally go by different names. Confusion can occur. This is avoided by everyone sharing the same discipline as you sharing the same terminology.

If your world is small, terminology is not so important. If you never venture out of your dojo, you can call things whatever you want - punch #1, kick #3, grab #12, peeling a banana, kissing the dragon, whatever. In old Okinawa, they didn't even do that. The teacher would simply demo a move and say "Do this." Worked well with one teacher and four or five regular students. As communication with others around the country and around the world becomes easier and more common, it is nice if we know what each other is talking about.

When I moved to rural South Carolina, I found the need to find common terminology. Asking for directions, I would be told, "Take the 2 lane a ways and make a left at the abandoned gas station." Now, "a ways" to me meant a couple of miles. Not in rural SC! I learned to rephrase the question to where we shared common terminology. "How long will it take to get to that gas station?" The reply, "About a half hour." So my initial understanding of 2 miles was actually closer to 20. Luckily I discovered that using time terminology was better than using local distance terminology.

No doubt, the locals perfectly understood how far "a ways" was. Besides, who didn't know that gas station? It was common knowledge Old man Jenkins shot his foot off with a shotgun and abandoned the station 8 years ago. Communication is subject to our own experiences and filters. So, it's a good thing whenever we can agree on specific terminology.
 

oftheherd11

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That's why I think I'll do better a second time around. I just need to ignore the English sentence structure. Treat it more like slang which often destroys English sentence structure. I need to just speak it and not try to use English as a guide to create the sentence.

I've been watching a lot of Korean shows and I try to repeat phrase and tones that I hear. I do the same with Japanese shows. I also watch kid shows that teach Korean kids how to speak Korean. I'll give a good try for a year and see what happens. lol

I'm tone death so that's a disadvantage of me. It should make for some interesting conversations though. ha ha ha.

You've no idea. I have made some of the most unbelievable mistakes in Spanish and Vietnamese as you could never imagine. Sometimes amusing and sometimes making people angry.
 

oftheherd11

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For my classes we count in Japanese for Japanese arts and Chinese in Chinese arts. We use in our syllabus Japanese terms like kote Gaeshi, ippon, gyaku nothing were a person has to speak a sentence, if you walk in most Karate, Aikido, Judo schools they all use Japanese terminology from mawashi geri, to ikkyo, to ippon seoi nage.
When in the last 40 years did every dojo around the world stop using the terminology and started just using english words to replace them?

Ah, well that is not how I understood what you were saying before. Counting is not what I would consider extensive learning and use of a language which is what I thought you meant. Most use of counting that I have encountered in some dojos doesn't usually go past 20. Is that what you meant by learning a language native to the art?

As to your last sentence, not having been in every dojo around the world in the last 40 years, I am at a loss to answer that.
 

JowGaWolf

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Ah, well that is not how I understood what you were saying before. Counting is not what I would consider extensive learning and use of a language which is what I thought you meant. Most use of counting that I have encountered in some dojos doesn't usually go past 20. Is that what you meant by learning a language native to the art?

As to your last sentence, not having been in every dojo around the world in the last 40 years, I am at a loss to answer that.
The OP is saying that the knowledge of native terminology reflects your knowledge of a system. If a person doesn't know the terminology then your knowledge of the system is questionable. So I asked what if a person knows the terminology, but not how to apply the techniques. Would the same be done to that person. If knowing the terminology is the only way to validate someone's knowledge of the system then it doesn't matter if a school is a McDojo or not as martial art application is not taken into consideration. When most people think of a McDojo they tend to think of a school who say they train real fighting techniques, but in reality, they have very little understanding of techniques and how to use them.

So this would be acceptable knowledge if the teacher knows all of the terminology in the native language of the system, but doesn't know the application.

If the teacher knows how to apply the techniques but changes the language of the terminology then the OP wouldn't train in that school. The OP wouldn't train under these guys because they aren't using the Thai terminology

I'm pretty sure "The matador knee" is not a Thai name.
 
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