Is Kenpo scientific?

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kenpochip

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I have been wanting to post this question for while.

"Is Kenpo scientific?"

People like to throw around the word "scientific" and apply it to a lot of things that are not scientific. I believe that Kenpo, as practiced by the vast majority (including myself), is not scientific.
It may be effective, and have evolved significantly over the years through years of accumulated empirical knowledge, but that doesn't make it scientific.

I think for it to be a science, there needs to be a large amount of experimentation and peer review and a gradually growing consensus on what is most effective (with a willingness to change). I think there is a little of that now, but there could be much more.

Scientists on the edge of discovery disagree all the time, but over time, they tend to agree on the basics.

With a scientific martial art, there would probably have to be the science of the motion and anatomy itself which could be studied.
There would also be various teaching techniques which could be studied and improved upon in order to teach students how to use the old and new martial principles.

If discoverers of new principles would be publicly known for their contributions, perhaps inflated rank would be less common.
( Actually, I doubt it).

KenpoChip
 

Robbo

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Kenpo is what it is.

As soon as somebody has something significant to add or change then they usually split off and form their own organization to promote the change. Propagating the change worldwide is impossible at this point even if it is the best thing since sliced bread.

As far as scientific....no, since there has to be something called the 'scientific method' being applied.

I would lean more towards it being logical base system in which to be firmly grounded. It's almost as if Kenpo shouldn't have any advanced material. We should hammer the basics and let the individuals evolve. But that would probably fracture the system even more than now.

Tough question to answer, opens a whole can of worms.

Rob
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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I think Mr. Parker used a little bit of the scientific method in evolving American Kenpo. Since the mid-80's the style has not evolved and I think it is now more of a religion.
 
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roryneil

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Maybe for some, but for me and many others, I started after Mr. Parker had already died, so there is no leanings in that way.
 
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Kenpo Yahoo

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The scientific method is nothing more than developing a hypothesis based on what you already know. Testing that hypothesis, gathering the data from that test and comparing it to what you thought would happen. From this you extrapolate and interpolate further information and test it again.

Those who never test the material are not using the science aspect of kenpo, rather they are like the people who type at a keyboard but have no idea how the microprocessor allows the keyboard to work. This is not to say this is a bad thing, it is just how it is.

The fun thing about being in the AKKI is that Mr. Mills and the rest are developing the new material to teach all of the members. It comes about by a system of trial and error based on intelligent hypothesis and years of real world testing. Is it always popular to change the way things are done. No, in fact history has shown us otherwise as most new discoveries and pedagogical changes have been met with fierce resistance and even hostility.

I'm not advocating that everyone seek to change the system that they are doing, but I am stating that sometimes change is necessary to further certain ideas and fields of study.

As I've said before this is just one man's point of view
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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Excellent post Kenpo Yahoo !!!

Science was used to develop American Kenpo. I fear that too many of us have stopped experimenting and are taking Mr. Parker's Infinite Insights as immutable gospel. It is good to hear that Mr. Mills and his organization are experimenting and seeking positive change and improvement. This is SO important for the future of Kenpo.
 
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KenpoDragon

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I'm not even going to touch this one.

:argue: :duel: :shotgun: :rockets:
 
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kenpochip

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I think there are several problems with getting people to accept change.

1. They might have to learn some material all over.

2. Their rank might change. Probably downward.

3. They might not like the new stuff. They are good at what they
do now, why do it differently? Besides, the Founder didn't do it that way.


I don't think any real science can be in the hands of just a few people for long. There would always be a number of experts. Over time, they would tend to agree on more than they disagree on.

So, the questions are --

1. Is Kenpo changing much?

2. Should it?

3. If it needs to change more, what would be a good approach to
teach students without making them relearn everything in a couple of years, when the "science" changes?

One distinction to keep in mind, is with the Kenpo itself and the way of TEACHING the Kenpo. They don't have to be the same thing.




KenpoChip
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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1. Kenpo is changing. Many many schools are modifying their curriculum to omit material and to incorporate other material. This is often frowned upon by Kenpoists wishing to remain true to the 24-technique curriculum and the teachings of the founder.

2. Kenpo MUST change. Martial arts and fighting sports are constantly evolving. 10 years ago, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu shook up the status quo. In the next 10 years, another innovation will come along. Boxing has also evolved as conditioning and technique have improved dramatically since the heyday of Muhammed Ali. Many traditional martial arts have remained static--particularly many of the Japanese, Korean, and Chinese striking arts. These arts were once the most effective fighting methods available. Now, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would argue that Tae Kwon Do, Hun Gar Kung Fu, or Shotokan Karate are leading edge martial arts. Kenpo evolved dramatically from the old 32-technique curriculum of the 60's and 70's to the current 24-technique and 16-technique curriculums developed in the 80's. But, if Kenpo does not improve on the system designed in the 80's, new arts and methods will eventually arise that will make Kenpo obsolete. Kenpo is too rich a system with too many smart practitioners to let that happen.

3. Change is always difficult. The Kenpo community's current fragmentation mean that there will never be a single way to move the system forward and that any dramatic changes will result in schism and the creation of new styles and sub-styles. When individual schools do this, they are usually labeled as crackpots or McDojos with little credibility for their new "Grand Master." The only way for change to occur effectively is for leaders of one of the major associations to develop a new curriculum completely outside of their normal teaching efforts, then announce their new style and break from their current one. This is the model that was used to create Kajukenbo. I think that that kind of innovation and risk-taking is absolutely required to move Kenpo forward into the 21st century.

This will of course create additional fragmentation within our community. Traditionalists will continue to practice "original Ed Parker American Kenpo" just as Tracy Kenpo students practice "original Kenpo" while the splinter group practices whatever new style they have created.

Like I said, change is difficult.
 
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Elfan

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Nice post Old Fat Kenpoka and I agree. Kenpo should continue to evolve. While this will lead to further fragmentation, in other ways this can be very cool. In Kenpo 2000, for instance, some have gone off and really worked the ground game, others worked with kickboxers and different people for gun disarms, and still others have specialized in the stick and new ways to train with them. Then all these guys have worked with what they learned, used the analytical skills and logic they learned from Kenpo, and then come back to share with everyone. Its really cool to see their evolution and progress of this stuff. One year I might be like "hey now they are doing kenpo and now they are doing kickboxing" but then a few years later go "woah its all starting to look the same... and very good."
 

Seig

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I personally feel every one has gone way too far in their analyizations. Analysis Paralysis strikes a cord to me here. Mr. Parker likened Kenpo to literature, in my years, I have likened it to construction. No matter what you wish to build, you must have a strong foundation. No matter what you wish to read or write, you must know the alphabet, phoenetics and basic grammar. I don't care which system you practice, 32, 24, or 16, at some point there is no more to the standardized curriculuum. Could the reason for this be that at that point, once you have learned the basics and have a strong foundation, now you can build/write in any manner you wish? Mr. Parker also said that Kenpo was a system, not a style. As you learn the system, your own style would evolve. It seems to me, that everything we are talking about was forseen and built into the system. Just my opinion.:asian:
 
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Kenpo Yahoo

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Mr. Parker also said that Kenpo was a system, not a style. As you learn the system, your own style would evolve.

So what this really means is that as you learn someone elses style, you internalize THEIR style as YOUR system which you later stylize to your own liking. Hmmmm

No matter what you wish to read or write, you must know the alphabet, phoenetics and basic grammar. I don't care which system you practice, 32, 24, or 16, at some point there is no more to the standardized curriculuum. Could the reason for this be that at that point, once you have learned the basics and have a strong foundation, now you can build/write in any manner you wish?

No, your statement while somewhat true lacks a qualifying element; allow me a second to explain. The basics that you learn are somewhat universal much the same way that basic arithmetic is universal to many of the sciences. An understanding of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are all necessary if you wish to comprehend deeper mathematical and/or scientific subject matter. However, this doesn't mean that the basic arithmetic is all you need to learn to understand the advanced subject matter. For example, to excel in calculus and physics you need to learn methods of differentiation and integration. While it's true that these tools are predicated on the theory of limiting factors coupled with basic arithmetic, they are obviously far more advanced than simple addition.

Kenpo is the same. In order to be able to execute anything properly you must have solid basics (stances, foot manuevers, etc, etc) this is analogous to the basic arithmetic stated earlier. However, as you learn different subjects (knife, club, groundwork, even advanced open hand material) you should realize that while your "simple" basics will help you out in your new subject matter they will not be enough. Each subject has it's own set of governing principles (basics if you will) due either to their intrinsic characteristics (i.e. length and weight of a club, blade characteristics of a knife) or because of the environment that it creates when you use them, for instance groundfighting.

While it is possible to simply put a weapon in for use in your openhand techniques, this is not an advisable course of action. It may work in some instances but in areas like circling destruction (just to name one) the initial movements would have you dragging the blade across the inside of your wrist. Their are obviously more in depth reasons and purposes for taking the time to learn to use the weapon properly but they would take much to long to explain.

I've always likened kenpo to an upside down pyramid with the tip buried in the ground. You need a strong set of basics to hold everything up, but each new level that you "build" will require a new or advanced set of SOLID, basics possibly far different from the ones you previously "built", to support this new layer of knowledge and skill. This means that the more you learn, the more you have the opportunity to learn. Each level of knowledge should open up a more expanded level above it, and so on and so forth. This has been the case for me thus far, and will continue on as far as I can see.

Sorry for rambling, just enjoying the conversation.
 

XtremeJ_AKKI

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Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Since the mid-80's the style has not evolved and I think it is now more of a religion.

Go talk to Skip Hancock.

Or, visit and AKKI school and see what Paul Mills has done with the system.
 
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twinkletoes

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What a great thread!

Scientific implies the scientific method. That means hypothesize, experiment, collect data, and draw conclusions.

How can we draw conclusions as to actual fighting skills? Do we have to go out and get into streetfights?

I think the probable answer has to do with lots of drilling and sparring. We must hit and be hit in order to talk about the results.

We must DO and experiment with how we DO it. If we do those things, then it's scientific.

~Chris
 

Ender

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Kenpo is based on scientiifc principles such as angle of deflection, center of gravity, leverage, etc. Much the same way aircraft, autos, etc are based on engineering, physics and science. There are underlying scientific premises that can be refined and this is what kenpo accomplishes. kenpo uses the basics of karate, kung fu, etc and expands on them.

But to state that kenpo is or is not "scientific" is just arguing semantics. You can state both sides of that issue. JMO
 

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