Is "Fighterman" Fernandez crazy? Probably. But in a good way! Check out the following clip. It's directed at the WC lineage, but IMO the problem he's addressing could apply to any of us. Please share your thoughts:
Is "Fighterman" Crazy?
- Thread starter geezer
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OP
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If you get beyond the whole Hong Kong vs European thing which is peculiar to the "WT" branch and expand what he is saying to WC in general he makes a great point. How many times do sifus get so caught up in the complexity of curriculum and specific drills that they forget to emphasize the obvious ....namely simplicity, efficiency and taking the offense?
In WT I got this same input from LT, and from some who trained in Europe, like Emin. Very pragmatic. Now I'm getting frustrated a bit by endless complications of the curriculum. For me WC is not about memorizing the endless cycles of "lat-sau" levels or "chi-sau sections". Those are just a path to learning efficient and effective technique. If the drills are getting you there, good. If not, drop 'em and train in a way that does get you to that point!
Or then again maybe I'm just getting too old and senile to learn all that curriculum! But jeez guys, that's the same thing that encouraged me to leave a kenpo system to the apparent simplity of WC back in '79. And I was only about 23 at the time. Now sometimes WC seems as overly complicated as what I was training before!
In WT I got this same input from LT, and from some who trained in Europe, like Emin. Very pragmatic. Now I'm getting frustrated a bit by endless complications of the curriculum. For me WC is not about memorizing the endless cycles of "lat-sau" levels or "chi-sau sections". Those are just a path to learning efficient and effective technique. If the drills are getting you there, good. If not, drop 'em and train in a way that does get you to that point!
Or then again maybe I'm just getting too old and senile to learn all that curriculum! But jeez guys, that's the same thing that encouraged me to leave a kenpo system to the apparent simplity of WC back in '79. And I was only about 23 at the time. Now sometimes WC seems as overly complicated as what I was training before!
futsaowingchun
Black Belt
I think with the "endless curriculum" is more about money then mastering your kung fu. Why do you think some systems have 100's of hand forms!! you need all that to keep them going for years!!
Many do get bogged down in the minutiae of WT, and I believe the details are important, but it's good to step back from time to time and look at the big picture and ask yourself if you are keeping what you are doing simple and uncluttered, or are you overcomplicating it?
The best way I've found to do this is to look at what you're doing in light of The 4 Fighting Principles.
And that's exactly what he's saying here..."just hit"....which is really just a restatement of the first principle
FYI, for those outside of LT lineage or its offshoots, the 4 fighting principles are:
- If the way is free, go forward
- If contact is made, stick
- If the opponent's force is greater, yield
- If the opponent withdraws, follow
Hey geezer, I've addressed this question on here before. How can we simplify what we are doing and streamline it?
In our group we train 7 chi sau sections based on SNT and CK, 4 sections based on BT, 8 sections based on MYJ and 1 chi gerk section, for a total of 20 sections. I would suppose that's fairly standard for the LT lineages, different versions notwithstanding.
While there is some repetition, there isn't a whole lot of redundancy there.
What do you see as a way of getting to the crux of it?
Being a teacher, I am not allowed the luxury of "forgetting the sections" and moving on, I have to continuously double back and pick up another passenger and bring them across on the boat.
I wonder sometimes if there is a simpler way that would still convey all that we want to convey without schlepping through 20 sections????
Danny T
Senior Master
Interesting.
We teach almost from the beginning wc is about attacking. Intercept and attack. Our rolling is not just rolling. The roll happens because of 'Attack - Counter Attacking' not rolling. We have trapping drills for development. However, in the intermediate to advance stages it is about attacking not trapping not defending. Trapping happens but is not what we are wanting to do, we want to hit!
Our fight principles:
'Receive What Comes', 'Stay With What Goes', 'Where There is Emptiness Strike'.
Intercept, Stick, Strike when nothing is stopping you.
We teach almost from the beginning wc is about attacking. Intercept and attack. Our rolling is not just rolling. The roll happens because of 'Attack - Counter Attacking' not rolling. We have trapping drills for development. However, in the intermediate to advance stages it is about attacking not trapping not defending. Trapping happens but is not what we are wanting to do, we want to hit!
Our fight principles:
'Receive What Comes', 'Stay With What Goes', 'Where There is Emptiness Strike'.
Intercept, Stick, Strike when nothing is stopping you.
These kind of complicated/complex Chi Sau curriculums are exactly why I think Chi Sau is somewhat irrelevant for real fighting. Oh...it trains you great for fighting another WIng Chun guy! But no non-Wing Chun opponent is going to give you the opportunity to do all this fancy Lat Sau stuff. Too much of it depends on the opponent standing straight up in front of you with his arms relatively close together. How often is that really going to happen?
Danny T
Senior Master
PiedmontChun
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I am constantly amazed at the ability of certain Si-Hings of mine to embody the 4 principles when sparring: simply send their hands out and intercept, stick, and follow me no matter what or how I try to hit them. And we never spar WT against WT; one person is generally always a designated "non WT" person and free to throw boxing type strikes or whatever they feel comfortable or capable of doing for the benefit of the other student.
So my experience only confirms to me the skill that the Chi-Sau sections, tedious as they may be, DO give to someone to do exactly what we should do in Wing Chun.
Yeah, I'm with you on that one from my perspective. I did not anything ground breaking in that vid. What was different?
We do pretty much the same at the school I am at. In fact I have been the guinea pig. Last week, although not sparring, we to simulate an untrained street warrior launching a punch, but a swinger from the hips. I believe in April, we are going to have a session where this type of stuff will practiced.
OP
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- #15
OK, in what I do there are about 12 "lat sau" programs, 20 or so Chi-sau section, and 5 forms including the weapos sets. Then the chi-sau sets are constantly evolving and changing, so for many we have old "Hong Kong" versions, and various EWTO versions... and each section is fairly complex as you can see from the clip below:
Now, for the record, these guys are from a different organization so I do this section somewhat differently. But the point is that it's a lot of choreographed movement to learn. When I first learned from LT, there was nothing like the lat sau program today, and there wre not nearly so many sections. The curriculum has expanded faster than a govt. program. And similar to a bloated govt. program, I doubt it's efficiency.
Another thing Yak. I don't know how many advanced students are at your school, but I teach a very small group. Since I returned to WC, it has taken me a number of years to get a couple of students along pretty far. And nobody into the Biu Tze or Dummy material, so even though I teach, there's nobody to practice the advanced stuff with. Combine that with a complicated and complex curriculum and it's a real problem to keep it all straight.
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Danny T
Senior Master
Once one understands chi sao, poon sao, and the associated drills all the trapping is about learning timing. Don't get caught up in the drills. You don't fight with drills. There may be a piece of a drill utilized, more often a piece of one drill and a piece of another will be used and not just the one drill. It is about learning timing, breaking the cadence, using off timing, attacking, and counter-attacking.
Vajramusti
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Chi sao is a very important part of good wing chun imo. Prepares you for sensing distance, openings, different kinds of timimg. It's not just for dealing with wing chun people. Various forms of chi sao develops the versatility of the wing chun practitioner.
I decided to abandon the European lat sau programs about 10 years ago.
Instead we train the HK lat sau drills and use much of what Emin developed when he split from LT and KK. It is much more streamlined.
As for training partners, I have a friend who I started WT with and we live within 2 miles of each other, so we train on a weekly basis. Otherwise, I have a handful of students who are training the 1st 4 sections and a couple who are into 5-7.
But I agree, sometimes I feel like I'm spinning plates trying to maintain the amount of material.
Danny T
Senior Master
Absolutely Joy, I agree. So many get stuck in drills and never move into applying. Didn't say Chi Sao and the associated drills are not important. They are however, once you know them don't get stuck and just be a great driller.
