Ideal Self-defense school?

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GreenieMeanie

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Understood. But the base of all that still requires a pretty wide range of expertise/experience, and it'd be rare to find one or two people who can cover all that and dedicate their time to a program with the amount of teaching hours that curriculum would require.

And seminars add to the cost.
I can think already of maybe 5 guys who teach it around the US on a regular basis.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I can think already of maybe 5 guys who teach it around the US on a regular basis.
Teaching something and having the depth and breadth of experience Im talking about are different things.

There are things I could teach, but do not, because my experience and direct knowledge of them is thin. Ill occasionally talk about them - passing along the knowledge I have from research and that small experience. There are even some things I teach based on what Ive learned from others, but that cant really extend to some of these topics (like de-escalation).

And 5 is a very small number.
 
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GreenieMeanie

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Teaching something and having the depth and breadth of experience Im talking about are different things.

There are things I could teach, but do not, because my experience and direct knowledge of them is thin. Ill occasionally talk about them - passing along the knowledge I have from research and that small experience. There are even some things I teach based on what Ive learned from others, but that cant really extend to some of these topics (like de-escalation).

And 5 is a very small number.
I could make an organized list, but I dont think that would be of interest to you. If we only relied on people having relevant experience, few people would learn anything. And thats assuming the experienced ones are suited to teach.
 

gyoja

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I could make an organized list, but I dont think that would be of interest to you. If we only relied on people having relevant experience, few people would learn anything. And thats assuming the experienced ones are suited to teach.
Could you send me a list? It would be nice to have the information organized for future recommendations.
 

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Which isn't really a good self-defense strategy.
Will you be able to counter technique A before you learn technique A?

A: Dear teacher! Do you teach self-defense to your students?
B: I teach my students how to force their opponents to defense themselves.

This is why you learn "hip throw" on day one. You then learn how to counter "hip throw" 3 years later. You have to be good at hip throw before you can use hip throw to counter hip throw.

Hip throw:


Hip throw counter:

 
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GreenieMeanie

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And they teach it around the US because there isn't sufficient demand in one location for them to set up shop.
I wouldnt know. Kembativz has their HQ in VA, MCCENTRIC, right? You also have to have a basic understanding of most of this, to certify as an Urban Combatives instructor if Im not mistaken.
 

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I wouldnt know. Kembativz has their HQ in VA, MCCENTRIC, right? You also have to have a basic understanding of most of this, to certify as an Urban Combatives instructor if Im not mistaken.
To my knowledge, Kelly McCann doesn't teach half of what you deem to be requirements for an ideal school. A look at his website for events shows groundfighting, dirty boxing, gun courses and stick and knife. No lockpicking, no counter kidnapping, no physical security. Heck, the gun course says you need 3 magazines, so not even revolver. Haven't seen McCann promote revolvers since he was pushing that weird gun with the barrel at the bottom of the cylinder.
 
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GreenieMeanie

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To my knowledge, Kelly McCann doesn't teach half of what you deem to be requirements for an ideal school. A look at his website for events shows groundfighting, dirty boxing, gun courses and stick and knife. No lockpicking, no counter kidnapping, no physical security. Heck, the gun course says you need 3 magazines, so not even revolver. Haven't seen McCann promote revolvers since he was pushing that weird gun with the barrel at the bottom of the cylinder.
He promotes more on IG, and the website had more on it before it was switched up. I dont know.

Is your choice of the word deem out of spite?
 

frank raud

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He promotes more on IG, and the website had more on it before it was switched up. I dont know.

Is your choice of the word deem out of spite?
Is Kelly one of the 5 guys you referred to earlier? A quick look at the Kembativz Insta shows one seminar for anti kidnapping. So even a hardcore military trainer only teaches one of your requirements as an occasional seminar, at an additional cost, not as part of his regular curriculum. Kinda like it's a niche interest, not a requirement.
 

gyoja

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Is Kelly one of the 5 guys you referred to earlier? A quick look at the Kembativz Insta shows one seminar for anti kidnapping. So even a hardcore military trainer only teaches one of your requirements as an occasional seminar, at an additional cost, not as part of his regular curriculum. Kinda like it's a niche interest, not a requirement.
That course is intense though. I thought it was real in the first few minutes!
 
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GreenieMeanie

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Is Kelly one of the 5 guys you referred to earlier? A quick look at the Kembativz Insta shows one seminar for anti kidnapping. So even a hardcore military trainer only teaches one of your requirements as an occasional seminar, at an additional cost, not as part of his regular curriculum. Kinda like it's a niche interest, not a requirement.
Maybe, I dont know really know. As far as Im aware his training company has provided all that.
 

frank raud

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There are people that want to receive the training that some warfighters received. They may be former military or security contractors that want the courses because they couldnt get them in their former organization. Others want the course because they want the training, but not the burden of service.
So....you're saying, this could be considered specialized, niche use information that is not particularly relevant to most people's requirements?
 

frank raud

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That course is intense though. I thought it was real in the first few minutes!
Anyone I know who has trained with McCann has done gun or combatives. Would you be willing to write a review of the course you took?
 
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GreenieMeanie

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So....you're saying, this could be considered specialized, niche use information that is not particularly relevant to most people's requirements?
Abduction is kinda low on the spectrum of worries, but thats not really the point of covering the material. Its one thing to know how to fight, or see a fight coming. The point is anticipating criminals, through understanding them and their methods.
 

frank raud

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Abduction is kinda low on the spectrum of worries, but thats not really the point of covering the material. Its one thing to know how to fight, or see a fight coming. The point is anticipating criminals, through understanding them and their methods.
So what is the crossover between abduction ( low on the spectrum of worries) and say mugging that requires me to be bound and gagged so I can avoid being mugged? Wouldn't my time be better spent learning body language and the actual tactics of muggers, or whichever crime(s) you're more concerned with? Wouldn't Craig Douglas' Managing Unknown Contacts have a more direct application to relevant criminal behavior than paying to be thrown in a trunk?
 
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GreenieMeanie

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So what is the crossover between abduction ( low on the spectrum of worries) and say mugging that requires me to be bound and gagged so I can avoid being mugged? Wouldn't my time be better spent learning body language and the actual tactics of muggers, or whichever crime(s) you're more concerned with? Wouldn't Craig Douglas' Managing Unknown Contacts have a more direct application to relevant criminal behavior than paying to be thrown in a trunk?
Most of that falls under HBPRA. Both are forms of ambush. Managing Unknown Contacts, as far as I can tell, is based on Geoff Thompsons fence concept. Both are listed accordingly.
 

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I could make an organized list, but I dont think that would be of interest to you. If we only relied on people having relevant experience, few people would learn anything. And thats assuming the experienced ones are suited to teach.

Someone teaching martial arts techniques should have experience practicing and implementing those techniques. IMO, that experience should include some experience in a chaotic situation against someone who doesn't want you to "win".

I can't really think of a skill I wouldn't view the same way. Sure, we can learn things from people who haven't needed to implement them, but we should always be suspect of their teaching. I could learn the basics of a programming language from somoeone who has only ever read the books and viewed others' videos about that langage, but I'd expect them to be ignorant of some basic principles, since (as described) they've never really had to use the language. If we go up one step, maybe it's someone who has only ever used the language for classroom assignments. Depending upon the assignments, that could be akin to only ever having drilled a technique, but never sparred with it.

How does that apply to things like de-escalation? Here, we're talking about a skill that is far more nuanced and variable than coding or applying a kimura. The situation, the personality of the other person, and many other things will affect what works, what adjustments are needed, and how to read the situation. Someone who doesn't need to use that skill on a regular basis simply cannot be expected to know those factors well enough to communicate them to others.
 

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Will you be able to counter technique A before you learn technique A?

A: Dear teacher! Do you teach self-defense to your students?
B: I teach my students how to force their opponents to defense themselves.

This is why you learn "hip throw" on day one. You then learn how to counter "hip throw" 3 years later. You have to be good at hip throw before you can use hip throw to counter hip throw.

Hip throw:


Hip throw counter:

That has no bearing on my statement.

And I also disagree with the "3 years later" statement. If the technique is something I'd consider a reasonable threat (meaning it's reasonable that an attacker or opponent in the street would be able to apply it), then teaching a counter to it should come pretty quickly. And if I were teaching for competition, it should come almost immediately after the basic technique is grasped, because that technique is clearly a reasonable threat by others of the same skill level in competition.
 
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