How do you test your MA skill without using the sport format?

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I said, "Sport is the path, combat is the goal". Some people may not agree that "Sport is the path". What's the other option besides using the sport format to test you MA skill?

Your thought?

 

[Anarax]

Sparring frequently with different people. It's great when your instructor has an arrangement with another school to train/spar with.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sparring frequently with different people. It's great when your instructor has an arrangement with another school to train/spar with.

I don’t make an absolute distinction between “sport” (in the sense of official competition events) and sparring in-house or with friends from another school. There are certainly some general differences I can point to, but I consider it to be more of a continuum of pressure testing that can be done with different rule sets, levels of intensity, and focus on “winning“ vs “learning”.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sparring frequently with different people. It's great when your instructor has an arrangement with another school to train/spar with.

But sparring is sport.

 

[geezer]

But sparring is sport.

Some people might make a distinction between formal organized competition for awards or prize purses and informal sparring. Some feel that only through organized competition can you really test and improve a martial art.

I, on the other hand, would agree with Tony that it is more of a continuum ...and basically that it's all good. Not everybody can or wants to be a pro, or even a very high level amateur.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some people might make a distinction between formal organized competition for awards or prize purses and informal sparring.

The only difference that I can think of is in

- tournament, you want to win.
- sparring, you just want to test your new skill and you don't mind to lose

Both use the sport format.

 

[drop bear]

Some people might make a distinction between formal organized competition for awards or prize purses and informal sparring. Some feel that only through organized competition can you really test and improve a martial art.

I, on the other hand, would agree with Tony that it is more of a continuum ...and basically that it's all good. Not everybody can or wants to be a pro, or even a very high level amateur.

Would pro's tend to be better martial artists generally?

 

[isshinryuronin]

The only difference that I can think of is in

- tournament, you want to win.
- sparring, you just want to test your new skill and you don't mind to lose

Both use the sport format.

I agree with your distinction between tournament and dojo sparring - but like you say, it's still sport format. That's OK for developing certain skills, but there is another path to combat. The path with few/no rules and controls, where the goal is not to learn how to score and win, but to overcome someone out to do you real harm. In this case, you do not want to be over-conditioned to abide by rules or pull your strikes. You want to practice incapacitating and crushing your opponent. Blow out a knee, grab and elbow smash/knee strike, crush the larynx, smother and throw him down, then stomp on him. This is especially true against an armed attacker.

Combat is full power and not so pretty, unlike most sparring or kata/forms. The emphasis is not on posture, or even application, but rather on the effect of the application when taken to its full potential. This means practicing with pads and shields, full power, against resistance. It is a hard workout, especially for the one holding the pads and getting stomped. Vicious intent and execution is the goal. Today we practiced over an hour like this after doing an hour of basics. Sensei took most of the punishment and broke his toe, but finished class without pause. Needless to say, we did not complain about expending our effort.

Of course, this type of "wild" training by itself is not desirable. Basic form and execution is important to maintain structure, balance, and efficiency. Half of one's form disappears in combat, so it must be excellent to start with. Real MA training requires a varied approach; soft and hard, learning and executing, controlling and letting go, kicking/punching air and using heavy bags/makiwara, doing forms as well as smacking a padded attacking partner with full power.

TMA has many types of practitioners, seeking a variety of benefits and goals - a true MA school should insure effectively defending oneself is one of them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

When I said, "Sport is the path, combat is the goal". Some people may not agree that "Sport is the path". What's the other option besides using the sport format to test you MA skill?

Your thought?

Nothing is a perfect replacement for actual self-defense. Boot camp cannot replace combat. Given that constraint, the Marine Corps has "The Crucible," a 56 hour nonstop training exercise designed to as nearly and safely as possible, simulate battle conditions. It must be completed before graduating boot camp.

By the same token, dojo sparring and solid step drills with a good uke or tori is valuable. Toris must attack in a realistic manner, with good speed and power, gauged to the level of the uki's abilities. Missing means getting hit, with a fair amount of power. Of course it's a compromise though. We don't knock each other out or break bones. Bruises might happen. A person might say ow a few times.

Sport karate like ippon matches are fun and can help with strategy, speed, self-confidence, mastering fear, and so on. However the techniques used in such matches are not appropriate to self-defense training.

One of our older dojomates who has since retired from training had a brother who trained, back in the 70s. He apparently believed in testing his training by starting bar fights. Our dojomate told he was a terror for several years. Then someone he picked a fight with shot him in the face, killing him. Well, he got realistic self-defense training, I guess.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Id probbly just do inhouse sparring, (which can technically be sport if you run inhouse tourments) and simulations of situations. This would be ontop of isolated practise, by that i mean if you spend the entire day doing one thing to get better at it. And generic bag work, pad work etc.

 

[Hanzou]

Randori or heavy sparring.

However, any form of practice fighting is going to require rules for the safety of its practitioners. You can’t just gouge out each other’s eyes or kick each other in the nuts on a consistent basis and expect to have a healthy roster of training partners.

 

[jobo]

I agree with your distinction between tournament and dojo sparring - but like you say, it's still sport format. That's OK for developing certain skills, but there is another path to combat. The path with few/no rules and controls, where the goal is not to learn how to score and win, but to overcome someone out to do you real harm. In this case, you do not want to be over-conditioned to abide by rules or pull your strikes. You want to practice incapacitating and crushing your opponent. Blow out a knee, grab and elbow smash/knee strike, crush the larynx, smother and throw him down, then stomp on him. This is especially true against an armed attacker.

Combat is full power and not so pretty, unlike most sparring or kata/forms. The emphasis is not on posture, or even application, but rather on the effect of the application when taken to its full potential. This means practicing with pads and shields, full power, against resistance. It is a hard workout, especially for the one holding the pads and getting stomped. Vicious intent and execution is the goal. Today we practiced over an hour like this after doing an hour of basics. Sensei took most of the punishment and broke his toe, but finished class without pause. Needless to say, we did not complain about expending our effort.

Of course, this type of "wild" training by itself is not desirable. Basic form and execution is important to maintain structure, balance, and efficiency. Half of one's form disappears in combat, so it must be excellent to start with. Real MA training requires a varied approach; soft and hard, learning and executing, controlling and letting go, kicking/punching air and using heavy bags/makiwara, doing forms as well as smacking a padded attacking partner with full power.

TMA has many types of practitioners, seeking a variety of benefits and goals - a true MA school should insure effectively defending oneself is one of them.

when i read stuff like this, i9 conclude that its written by someone who hasn't had a lot of real world fights and are seeking to justify the lack of competition in there training

theres no doubt in my mind that someone who is competing at a reasonable level, either formally or at dojo level has a much better grounding that someone who isnt, the high the quality of there opponents is the more of an advantage they carry in to ' combat'' as you put it

punching pads or someone padded up is a very poor second to that, in skill, physiology and fitness

combat is different than ring fighting, in that it tends to be all in very quickly, which is a considerable advantage to the fittest participant, as people run out of strength and cardio coordination very quickly if they haven't conditioned themselves to that level of exertion and by quickly i mean less than 30 seconds of maximal effort will see most people spent, most fight that ive seen have had one or commonly both combative finished as an attacking force in less than that time and they generally just submit out of self preservation

if your fit enough to compete against other fit people you should find that that gives you the advantage against most people, if your not, than thats the area you need to work on, rather than crushing larynx as your at a serious disadvantage will will take considerable skill to over come

 

[Tez3]

The only difference that I can think of is in

- tournament, you want to win.
- sparring, you just want to test your new skill and you don't mind to lose

Both use the sport format.

Some people take sparring very seriously and really don't like losing! It's not sport to them.
I don't consider it sport either but training.

 

[isshinryuronin]

when i read stuff like this, i9 conclude that its written by someone who hasn't had a lot of real world fights and are seeking to justify the lack of competition in there training

Your conclusion is wrong.

theres no doubt in my mind that someone who is competing at a reasonable level, either formally or at dojo level has a much better grounding that someone who isnt, the high the quality of there opponents is the more of an advantage they carry in to ' combat

As I said, training should take a varied approach, including sparring. I pointed out that sparring does impart certain valuable skills (but does not fully prepare one for real combat where rules/sportsmanship are not a consideration.)

punching pads or someone padded up is a very poor second to that, in skill, physiology and fitness

I beg to differ. It is a great developer of fitness as I alluded to a couple of times in my post. Repeated hard hitting against resistance is quite taxing. Regarding skill, I mentioned that: 1. Form and execution of technique is of great importance, and 2. once again, training should varied to develop a range of abilities. Furthermore, I stressed that this realistic contact training alone is not desirable for those reasons.

When I read stuff like your post, I wonder how someone can ignore the poster's content and come up with objections when little is in dispute. Perhaps you are more interested in objecting than truly understanding. You say sparring is good, so did I. You say skill is important, so did I. You say competition is good, but that combat is different - exactly my point! You agree with me on many things. Just because I say go for the larynx does not mean I think conditioning is not important. Just because I like apples doesn't mean I don't like bananas. That's faulty logic.

 

[jobo]

Your conclusion is wrong.

As I said, training should take a varied approach, including sparring. I pointed out that sparring does impart certain valuable skills (but does not fully prepare one for real combat where rules/sportsmanship are not a consideration.)

I beg to differ. It is a great developer of fitness as I alluded to a couple of times in my post. Repeated hard hitting against resistance is quite taxing. Regarding skill, I mentioned that: 1. Form and execution of technique is of great importance, and 2. once again, training should varied to develop a range of abilities. Furthermore, I stressed that this realistic contact training alone is not desirable for those reasons.

When I read stuff like your post, I wonder how someone can ignore the poster's content and come up with objections when little is in dispute. Perhaps you are more interested in objecting than truly understanding. You say sparring is good, so did I. You say skill is important, so did I. You say competition is good, but that combat is different - exactly my point! You agree with me on many things. Just because I say go for the larynx does not mean I think conditioning is not important. Just because I like apples doesn't mean I don't like bananas. That's faulty logic.

but sports fighting does ..''fully'' prepare you, as far as any preparation is actually possible ,punching pads does not come close to replicating the physicality, danger or fitness of an encounter.

is it better than nothing ? possible, is it better than high intensity training , not close, your probably better of doing press ups

its different coz your opponent is very likely going to totally commit from the first moment, that is generally a lot easier to deal with than an opponent who paces himself and controls distance and contact, in other words combat is a lot easier, provided you can survive the first few seconds and let your superior fitness ( from competitive fighting) come into play

 

[skribs]

If your goal is to compete in a sanctioned competition, or at least to emulate the style, rules, and strategies of said competition, then you are training for sport. If that is not your goal, then you are not training for sport.

One can spar without concern for sporting rules.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I said, "Sport is the path, combat is the goal". Some people may not agree that "Sport is the path". What's the other option besides using the sport format to test you MA skill?

Your thought?

I think sparring to learn is way to go. This requires the person to use the techniques found in the system. Learning happens on all levels even for those with advanced fighting skill sets. Once the skills reach a level where you can successfully defend, attack, and counter, then the intensity and power can be increased. This should be done against other systems. I'm not big on winning. To me if I hit you more , block more, counter more, throw more, and escape more then you will come out on the bad end regardless of if we are keeping score or not.

Sports may or may not help depending on the sport. Tag point sparring isn't going help in a lot of the areas of fighting.
When sparring to learn you want to continue to develop skill sets that you are good at deploying.

When you get good with a jab the learn how to deploy it in different ways. When you get that down pat then learn another way to deploy it. When a person stops one way then you'll have another way to beat your opponent with a jab.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I can impose my physical dominance on a person then how can that person win physically?

 

[MadMartigan]

Class is class. There is only so much that can be done in this setting. Mostly, I find class to be where the physical skills are refined and fitness increased to prepare as much as possible.

Outside that, the only true preparation is 'adrenal inoculation'. A smaller, safe amount of adrenaline to teach you how to handle it's effects. Hard contact and scenario training comes close to approximating this... but still only gets so far. For those who have been there, we know, only exposure to real violence prepares you for real violence. It sucks, but it's true. Only the fear that comes from real stakes, and learning to work through that fear to come out the other side.

Obviously (as an earlier post set out) seeking out confrontation is a very foolish way to go about this. So we do our best to prepare our bodies in class, and work on mental preparedness (learning about the effects of adrenaline on your system so you know what to expect should the real thing happen).

 

[Anarax]

I don’t make an absolute distinction between “sport” (in the sense of official competition events) and sparring in-house or with friends from another school. There are certainly some general differences I can point to, but I consider it to be more of a continuum of pressure testing that can be done with different rule sets, levels of intensity, and focus on “winning“ vs “learning”.

I don't entirely disagree with you and agree that it's on a spectrum. However, I find the focus between everyday sparring and training for a sanctioned competition either increases/decreases in variance depending on the style/school.

For example, my FMA instructor favors limited protection stick sparring, opposed to the high volume exchanges in the WEKAF. The training and focus changes to prepare for the rules of WEKAF which usually puts very little emphasis on defense because of the heavy protection. I've experienced the same with Karate, normal sparring for me is moderate/full contact, point competition puts it at the opposite end of the spectrum. I also agree with the difference in mindsets between learning and winning.

If someone asked me why I spar in Karate or FMA, I personally wouldn't say sport, only beacuse I'm not training for a sanctioned competition. I think it just comes down to a difference in vernacular. However, I see how sparring can fall under the category of sport or competition.