Healing arts and Hapkido

[SmellyMonkey]

As I understand it, there is a tradition in Hapkido where one is expected to train in "healing arts" before they acquire master rank in Hapkido.

My master learned some chiropractic skills, as well as some massage techniques ,in Korea at Yong-In University while she was studying Hapkido.

I was wondering what types of healing arts people in the states have learned. Did you go to school to learn your healing arts? If so, did you go for a degree or only take a few classes to learn some basics? What types of healing art training would you recommend your student to take?

Thanks in advance for your help,
Jeremy

 

[glad2bhere]

As you know, the greater number of martial arts teachers in the Pacific Rim countries were also involved with Oriental medicine. It is very easy to subscribe to various Oriental medicine courses, and even do it by mail. The difficulty is when someone begins to actually incorporate those learned skills, or perhaps teach those skills as part and parcel of a MA. Different from emergency interventions, which are almost universally protected by "Good Samaritan" Legislation, making the free choice to practice an elective intervention on an individual can come very close to practicing medicine without a license in many quarters. As late as the 1800-s any modern well-trained and certified First Aid practitioner knew about as much as the common doctor, and probably more. People gave what help they could because they were few other options. Today, the emphasis is on performing only emergency intervention with an eye towards getting the individual to competent medical treatment.

Its true that being able to heal or at least intervene with an individual is a very powerful position, and with the increased use of herbal remedies, manipulation and exotic practices such as Chi Kung I suppose it can be sorely tempting to try to get a piece of that powerful position. My thought is to let it alone. Take a First Aid course if you want, but leave off health service as part and parcel of MA training unless you are faced with an emergency situation. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

As I understand it, there is a tradition in Hapkido where one is expected to train in "healing arts" before they acquire master rank in Hapkido.

Hello all,

Most people involved in Hapkido have incurred a sprain or dislocation from one time to another. There are various ways of dealing with that, and Koreans have a long history of medical technology for such things. There is however no evidence that Choi, Yong Sul, Founder of Hapkido, ever practiced or taught any such techniques.

The anaolgy is the same as saying that if one drives a car for 30 years, one might change a tire, that does not mean that one is a mechanic...

There may be Hapkido practitioners out there that have done some academic study of traditional/western healing arts, but much like the touted firing of arrows from horseback, it is a fiction to believe that it is required or commonplace in Hapkido.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Well, I still believe learning how the body heals is important. If I'm spending so much time learning to take someone apart, I should learn how to put them back together again. (Even if I don't actually do the putting back together myself, due to liability reasons.)

I'd be amazed to think that Choi didn't learn how to heal. If his ki development reached the stage where he could knock someone down with his ki without touching him (as he is quoted in one of the interviews in the big Hapkido book), he'd have to learn how to use his ki to heal.

Anyway, I don't want to argue what Choi did or didn't say or do. I just would like to hear from American high ranks who have studied a healing art or know of another who has. And I'd like to know how they went about learning that art.

 

[Kumbajah]

I've seen my master reset quite a few dislocations and a couple bones . They are usually followed up by a trip to the doctor later on. The learning method - don't think its viable in this day and age - but learned doing it on cadavers.

Brian

 

[Chris from CT]

Well, I still believe learning how the body heals is important. If I'm spending so much time learning to take someone apart, I should learn how to put them back together again. (Even if I don't actually do the putting back together myself, due to liability reasons.)

That is a great way to look at it. When people ask how I chose to get into acupuncture, I tell them I'm just "completing the circle." You're absolutely correct in that we do spend so much time learning to hurt others that everything has its yin and yang pair. Causing damage and healing are opposites but yet are part of the same whole. I still feel that everything in life is a circle and that path that led to damaging eventually comes back around to healing.

Anyway, I don't want to argue what Choi did or didn't say or do. I just would like to hear from American high ranks who have studied a healing art or know of another who has. And I'd like to know how they went about learning that art.

I wouldn't consider myself a high ranking Hapkidoin, but I have put in my fair share of mat time. I learned some healing from previous martial art teachers of mine, but the core of what I am trained in is Acupuncture.

To learn, I went to Tri-State College of Acupuncture ( http://www.tsca.edu ) in New York City. There I earned my Masters of Science Degree in Acupuncture. Once I had a certain amount of college credits and other specific classes, I attended Tri-State for 3 years. If I want to do Herbology along with it, it will be another 2 years of study.

I hope this was of some help to you. :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Ok, thats good for YOU, Chris. Now what about the person who might see you ply your craft and decides that what you are doing is "not so tough". Off he goes to open his own school some time later and represents himself as some sort of "healer". He hits the local BORDERS BOOKSTORE and buys some books on this and that and starts walking on peoples backs and pouring unmentionable concoctions down their throats. Remember, there was a time when both Arsenic and Mercury were considered legit medicines, and some of the herbs of Native Americans can be quite toxic. Lets face it. Just cause I can swallow an Aspirin doesn't mean I can cure headaches, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

I don't think this is a valid argument. You could apply this to martial arts ("Kicking and punching, hell, I can do that'" ) or ANY craft in general. Its monkey see monkey do. So people shouldn't go to medical school to prevent quacks? All crafts should be practiced in secret to prevent the unworthy from trying to ape them? Asian medicine is a dangerous craft and shouldn't be practiced in the west? What's your point?

I don't see how this counters Chris' 3 years of study under a accredited program. He went outside the dojang to learn the craft. Gave a link to the program. He didn't start spouting some general guidelines on how to heal and say go get em boys.

In our "information age" you can get texts on any subject. I can get the entire curriculum of medical texts from harvard medical school doesn't mean I'm can hang a shingle and have people start calling me doctor or start to perform heart surgery.

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

".....I don't see how this counters Chris' 3 years of study under a accredited program. He went outside the dojang to learn the craft. Gave a link to the program. He didn't start spouting some general guidelines on how to heal and say go get em boys. ...."

But that is exactly my point. Chris decided that he wanted to learn a skill and went and got an education for that skill. Note that he did not approach his teacher and say "teach me what you know as part of this MA". I'm sorry, but those days are gone. If somebody breaks a bone in my school I can stablize it with a splint and wrap him up but the next stop is ER. If somebody has a coronary in class I can give M2M and cadiac massage but while I am doing that someone is calling an ambulance and the EMT. In fact its the same with the Kwan I belong to. At BB we introduce 6 traditional family of weapons. The idea is to introduce a person to the basics of handling each of these weapons and the expectation that the student will be drawn to one or more of these weapons as his training goes on. The idea is not that the student will have "mastered" the weapon. That comes with a lifetime of work.

If Jeremy wants to pursue an understanding of bone-setting, Oriental Medicine, Chi Kung or whatever, my suggestion is that he use his teacher---- to locate a good source of formal education on the subject. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chris from CT]

I was getting a couple of different thoughts in that post, but if I understand Bruce correctly, he is saying that the healing arts are not part of the Hapkido curriculum in general, but some basic aspects may be taught to stimulate interest for more in-depth study.

Bruce? :idunno:

Take care.

 

[glad2bhere]

Pretty much it. I don't want to pretend that the healing arts were NEVER a part of "fixing what one broke". What I am saying is that in our modern world I think it needs to be as you correctly read, a stimulus to further investigation if one is so disposed albeit under a more structured and audited approach. In my own case, I have been entirely taken with sword and have long since exceeded the "introductory" material of the kwan I belong to, but that was my choice. I bet GM Myung probably has some simple, basic healing bits he could share, but again, only to "wet my appetite", if you know what I mean. Now for me personally I am intrgued by such things, but not enough to pursue something on my own and delve deeper, but thats just me. Maybe Jeremy is built of different stuff, ne?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Well, right now Jeremy doesn't know what he is ready to or what is is made of. He's just starting to see what's out there and wants more info.

Chris, thanks for your help.

I was leaning towards accupuncture training, as it ties so well into hapkido.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did the accupuncture school set you back? Also, were you a full-time student or a part-time student?

Jeremy

 

[Chris from CT]

Chris, thanks for your help.

I was leaning towards accupuncture training, as it ties so well into hapkido.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did the accupuncture school set you back? Also, were you a full-time student or a part-time student?

Hey, no prob Jeremy.

I was a full time student. Everyone goes full time there, but the schedule is open enough for students to keep working. Thank god.

It was about $14,000 a year, but the good thing is that the school is accredited so students can apply for up to around $18,000 in financial aid per year.

If you're even partially interested, have them send you an information packet.

If I can be of any more help, just let me know.
Take care

 

[lhommedieu]

As stated above, there is a long tradition wherein martial arts teachers also functioned as healers in Asian cultures. Typically this would involve apprenticeships with their teachers that would be as rigourous and last as long as their martial arts studies. This system is still practiced in some martial arts cultures today to a greater or lesser extent - even in the United States and other western countries. For example, the North American Tang Shou Tao Association requires that its instructors attain training in tui na and Chinese herbal medicine so that they may treat their students' training injuries; this training is actually quite extensive. Many instructors have also gone on to receive formal training in acupuncture and herbology.

Tom Bisio, who has lectured at Tri-State College of Acupuncture where Chris and I attended school, teaches a system of Chinese body-work that is intended for martial arts injuries and sports-related injuries, etc. Quite often, the preponderance of students at these classes are acupuncturists and herbalists who attend in order to deepen their understanding of how to treat musculoskeltal injuries. One of the courses is by invitation only to acupuncturists who wish to learn a system of acupuncture for treating martial arts injuries; acupuncture as practiced in this manner is conceived of somewhat differently than usually taught in the acupuncture schools.

For more information:

www.tombisio.com

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[glad2bhere]

Hhhhmmmm......

As long as we have this kind of talent available to a discussion, how about a question that I have been pushing on WARRIOR-SCHOLAR Net, 'kay?

Simply put, without reinventing the entire string what I am investigating is the following premise.


Given:


a.) that each of us is a collection of points with meridans running all through us, I doubt that one can blow their nose without impacting the Ki flow in ones' body, yes?

b.) In an effort to facilitate health I bet an arguement could be made for performing various skills or drills that would foster good or improved health. Right again?

c.) I will go so far as to say that I bet either of you two gentleman --- Chris or Steve--- would conceed that such skills with such effects can or have been identified and that further, there are more than a few occasions when these drills might have a combat application as well. As I write this I am thinking of traditional kata as a prime example. Right again?

Premise:

someone takes such a kata and alters it. Not so much by moderating a behavior (IE. shallower stance; slower rhythmn) but by actually deleting a motion. Then, if you have considered this, take it a step farther and consider that a person might not stop at deleting a motion but actually substitute another bit of his particular choosing.


Question: Might such a decision or choice and subsequent execution of the "new" form now reduce the health-giving properties of the form? I'll go even farther (as long as I am pushing my luck anyhow ) and wonder loudly if such changes might be known to actually detract from health-giving benefits, perhaps even contribute to an unhealthy response?

Hope this came across clearly enough. Its hard to make one of those '25-words-or-less" questions. I am open to whatever you want to share.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[lhommedieu]

Hhhhmmmm......

As long as we have this kind of talent available to a discussion, how about a question that I have been pushing on WARRIOR-SCHOLAR Net, 'kay?

Simply put, without reinventing the entire string what I am investigating is the following premise.

O.K. - I'll bite. I'll try to respond strictly in terms of Chinese medicine.

Given:


a.) that each of us is a collection of points with meridans running all through us, I doubt that one can blow their nose without impacting the Ki flow in ones' body, yes?

I would add that there has to be structure for Qi to flow; it's difficult, if not impossible, to stimulate the flow of Qi through a ruptured tendon, eg. In Chinese medicine there is a continuum from the material (blood, flesh, bones, etc.) to the immaterial (Qi, Shen, etc.)

b.) In an effort to facilitate health I bet an arguement could be made for performing various skills or drills that would foster good or improved health. Right again?

Generally speaking, movement equals health; lack of movement equals lack of health. Chinese medicine sometimes uses the imagery of the hinges on a door: freely moving, on-track hinges denote health; rusty, creaky, off-track hinges denote a less than healthy condition...In this context, Qi Gong or Nei Gong exercises teach the pratitioner how to move efficiently; this is usually done my relaxing musculature and relying on skeletal structure for strength or power. Kata or form does the same thing if it follows similar ergonomic principles.

c.) I will go so far as to say that I bet either of you two gentleman --- Chris or Steve--- would conceed that such skills with such effects can or have been identified and that further, there are more than a few occasions when these drills might have a combat application as well. As I write this I am thinking of traditional kata as a prime example. Right again?

Well, I can't speak for Chris - but yes: learning how to move quickly while relaxed and using your skeletal structure to generate power has some definite advantages when it comes to fighting.

Premise:

[ someone takes such a kata and alters it. Not so much by moderating a behavior (IE. shallower stance; slower rhythmn) but by actually deleting a motion. Then, if you have considered this, take it a step farther and consider that a person might not stop at deleting a motion but actually substitute another bit of his particular choosing.

I believe this is called fighting.

Question: Might such a decision or choice and subsequent execution of the "new" form now reduce the health-giving properties of the form? I'll go even farther (as long as I am pushing my luck anyhow ) and wonder loudly if such changes might be known to actually detract from health-giving benefits, perhaps even contribute to an unhealthy response?

No. As long as the new movement is "user-friendly" (i.e., adheres to the principles described above) it shouldn't make a difference. It may make a difference if you leave out a movement and then try to apply it in a martial context. For example, if I learn to move my head when I parry, and then decide I'm not going to move my head anymore and depend solely on my parry, I may at some time miss my parry...

But in terms of changing the sequence of movements: this is done all the time. Yang style Tai Qi Quan looks different from Chen style; Xing Yi Quan looks different from Ba Gua Zhang - as long as the general principles are adhered to it shouldn't matter what kind of form you are practicing. Forms are taught to introduce "big picture" principles (which stay remarkably the same no matter what martial art you practice) into muscle memory: I can't adhere strictly to the sequence in a form if someone throws a left-right instead of a right - I have to adapt along general lines.

The guiding principle is not whether a "new" movement is added or subtracted, but whether any movement is correct or incorrect. It is possible to hurt yourself doing martial arts forms and qi gong, but this is due to doing movements incorrectly. It's like asking: "will I hurt myself by lifting this heavy object before I run up the stairs," instead of asking "will I hurt myself by lifting with my knees locked and my back bent?"

Hope this came across clearly enough. Its hard to make one of those '25-words-or-less" questions. I am open to whatever you want to share.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

No problem. Hope this made sense.

Best,

Steve

 

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Steve.

If I may summarize your response, absent injurious behavior (in the physical sense) there is no likely way to produce a negative result on Qi flow by merely changing movements. Perhaps to put it another way-- all movement is good movement where Qi is concerned. Where Qi is concerned it is little or no activity which is much more likely to create problems, yes?

If I have heard you correctly so far, is it, then, possible to lay out a spectrum of activity such that one might make a matrix of speed along the Y axis and complexity along the X axis and thereby find an optimal rhythmn of execution for a given sort of form. I ask this because the Chen TCC was performed at a strikingly more dynamic rate than its Yang successor. Just wonder what the implications of this might have been--- if any--- on Qi work and its attendant health aspects. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Chris from CT]

someone takes such a kata and alters it. Not so much by moderating a behavior (IE. shallower stance; slower rhythmn) but by actually deleting a motion. Then, if you have considered this, take it a step farther and consider that a person might not stop at deleting a motion but actually substitute another bit of his particular choosing.

It is possible that the beneficial effect may be different after such changes. For a fictitious example (don't try this at home)...

"Chi Gong exercise #1" Nourishes Kidney Yin.
Hands on your lower back bending backwards from your waist looking upwards

A different practioner changes the way it’s done to the following...
Arms extended outwards to the sides, tilting only the head backwards looking up.

Now the exercise no longer works to nourish the "Kidney Yin," BUT it is now beneficial to the body by stimulating "Lung Qi."

In general, when learning a particular exercise, or even kata/hyung, a practitioner should know (purpose and effect) why a movement was done in the first place before attempting to modify it.

Bottom line... "You have to know the rules before you can break them."

Question: Might such a decision or choice and subsequent execution of the "new" form now reduce the health-giving properties of the form?

Maybe, maybe not.

Are you referring to the "Sanchin Breathing” posts? In many styles of Chi Gong, movement is natural and flowing, but in others there is dynamic tension and so forth. When you get into Wei Gong exercises that use dynamic tension and specific breathing patterns, a person must be careful to do them properly and increase frequency properly. If not it can cause unnecessary stress on the body, resulting in negative effects such as illness and injury.

Hope this came across clearly enough. Its hard to make one of those '25-words-or-less" questions. I am open to whatever you want to share.

Are you calling me "simple" Bruce? :ultracool

Take care

 

[lhommedieu]

Thanks, Steve.

If I may summarize your response, absent injurious behavior (in the physical sense) there is no likely way to produce a negative result on Qi flow by merely changing movements. Perhaps to put it another way-- all movement is good movement where Qi is concerned. Where Qi is concerned it is little or no activity which is much more likely to create problems, yes?

On the skeletomuscular level yes; keep in mind though that in esoteric forms of Qi Gong there are side-effects associated with improper Qi Gong training.

If I have heard you correctly so far, is it, then, possible to lay out a spectrum of activity such that one might make a matrix of speed along the Y axis and complexity along the X axis and thereby find an optimal rhythmn of execution for a given sort of form. I ask this because the Chen TCC was performed at a strikingly more dynamic rate than its Yang successor. Just wonder what the implications of this might have been--- if any--- on Qi work and its attendant health aspects. Thoughts? Comments?

Yes, I understand what you’re saying – but the optimal form of exercise in terms of health preservation (along the lines that we have been discussing) would be the slower forms of movement. Yang (energy) tends to burn up Yin (material), so if you are talking about finding a place on a continuum that feels comfortable to you then I guess it all depends on your recovery rate. In addition, it makes sense to make movements as simple as possible, and to adhere to natural, basic movements that do not cause stress and strain on the body. Faster movement is generally introduced to facilitate martial application once the individual has learned to relax and utilize skeletal structure to generate power instead of muscular effort – but there is always a trade-off re. injury. To take an extreme example: when I was learning Estacada-Kajukenbo we practiced the sets very slowly for months at a time, and gradually built up speed over a period of several years. What that meant in terms of injury was that the faster the movement, the more our bodies broke down under training – despite the fact that we had trained to perform techniques in a “healthy” manner. Now, there is a point where all healthy athletes get injured and the first thing they should do is rest (i.e. slow down); what generally happens however is that the pressure of competition is so strong that they attempt to work through the injury. Sometimes they are strong enough to heal despite the fact that they are injured but often these injuries linger just below the surface and occur again and again.

But I think that I have strayed off the topic somewhat. I guess the answer to your question is, yes – it should be possible to find a place where everything is in balance – but I don’t think it matters so much in terms of Qi as it does matter in terms of Blood (i.e., the material structure of your body).

Best,

Steve

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Steve and Chris:

What truely great information!!! I will need to chew on this quite a bit which tells me that I have gotten a lot of great information. While I am at it, let me toss out one other thought.

Chris mentioned a hypothetical situation in his post in which a specified posture might be identified as stimulating a particular point. I think we all know that certain sequences in kata and hyung are found repeating not just in the same form but repeating in many forms. Putting aside combat applications and focusing on just promoting sound heath is it possible to look at a sequence and note that a particular combination might tend to facilitate a kind of flow of one sort more than another? For instance, might the common sequence of block/front-snap-kick/double-punch or the sequence of L-R-L Knifehand block encourage flow along a particular meridian? Can a sequence be characterized as more Yin or more Yang than its fellows? In fact, could a form such as Naifanchi be catalogued as a "Yang" kata with a lot of forceful movement, while a more lyric, flowing form (Seiunchin?) be more Yin-inducing?==== or am I just going off the deep end, now?

Best Wishes,

Bruce