"Dont Rape" training...

Steve

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I agree. It's the cognitive dissonance at work, similar to kids who steal movies or music off of Usenet or a torrents site. Most know that stealing is illegal and would never steal from a store. The issue isn't whether or not they understand that stealing is wrong. They just don't see downloading music from a website as stealing. It's a disconnect that has resulted because society at large has sent mixed signals. Same thing in a frat house. The culture of the Greek System is, in my experience, broken and dysfunctional, where excessive drinking as a means of "getting laid" is presented as something other than rape. The culture of the group creates a disconnect where the behavior is excused and understood to be something other than the behavior that is considered immoral.
While my views on this subject have evolved over time, I do still think the above is true. In my opinion, some kind of societal reset is needed because while men generally agree that sexual assault is bad, I believe there is a fundamental misunderstanding that many things men think are fine and dandy are, in fact, sexual assault. It's that disconnect between the big concept of what is wrong, and the details of what that thing actually is. So, in the post above, stealing is wrong, but downloading music somehow doesn't count as stealing.

For example, there has been since this thread was started 9 years ago, a concerted effort to train young men that a woman who is unconscious is not fair game. What do you do when a young lady passes out at a party? You make sure she's safe and that she gets home safely. That's what. And I really believe that efforts to make this clear have made a difference, at least in some areas.

Guys like Brett Kavanaugh... there's no question in my mind that he did the things he was accused of doing. I also think, in his mind, those things he and his friends did weren't wrong.
 

lklawson

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Aren't you cute.
Yes. Being this attractive, however, can be a burden.


Did I say I was upset THAT men were discussing this matter? No. I did not.
Your entire post is complaining about the fact that it's men engaging in most of the discussion, starting with "I just can't help but sigh" and ending with "Get a grip, fellas ... literally." If you didn't intend to come across as upset then you might have set on the post for a while then gone back and re-read it, re-writing it to change the tone.

For that matter, aren't you assuming gender here? How do you know these posters are all men other than you don't like what they wrote? Not with me, of course. I'm a guy and I admit it.


That most of the discussion had tends to slant towards the assumption that a woman is out-and-about engaging in risky behavior wearing clothing that men think invites them or is meant to attract their attention when the truth is the majority of women who are raped are wearing things like pajamas, mumus, casual clothing doing nothing but going about their daily business.
Most of the discussion in this thread, made by men (we assume) specifically didn't not say that what a person is wearing "invites" the attack, though, yes, how a person presents themselves can draw attention. These are two different things and they shouldn't be conflated, though apparently some people mistakenly do.


Reach much?
All the time. I'm kinda short (despite being this attractive). Sometimes I even have to stand on my tippy-toes to get stuff of the top shelf. I'm a little jealous of those really tall people. But it's good-natured jealousy.

Are you sure you're not upset? It sure sounds like it again.


Ironically, most women have been sexually assaulted yet few men claim to know any man who has assaulted someone.
Two reasons (at least). First, the best statistics we have tend to indicate that the VAST majority of men aren't actually rapists, meaning that the set of rapist men is much smaller than the general pool of men. Second, it turns out that a lot of people who engage is a crime often don't brag about it. So while some may, apparently many don't, thus, again, reducing the likelihood that any person would knowingly know a rapist.


Some of the discussion in this thread intimates the responsibility of sexual assault on female victims based on what they wear and where they go and what they do - NOT ON THE ACTIONS OF BAD ACTORS.
No. Some discussion in this thread suggests that some people engage in behavior which increases their odds of being targeted by predators. This does not excuse the predator. But if you're going to give advice about personal safety, that should include not putting oneself in higher-risk situations.


To respond to your strawman fallacy, yes - women DO call out other women on bad actions ... theft, robbery, spousal abuse, paternal manipulation, etcetera.
And most men have no problem saying that criminal actions are criminal actions. Nevertheless, the criminal bears the responsibility for their own actions. Wasn't that one of your points?


Most men miss it
How do you know most men miss it?


because they infantilize this type of social responsibility taken on mostly by women as bickering or cat-fighting, transform it into something sexually arousing, and reassign its meaning to suit their desires instead of recognizing the usefulness.
I'm not sure where you get your ideas of how "most men" think. At best it's a caricature and wildly inaccurate. At worst, it's a stereotype and lazy thinking.


So it would be GREAT if MEN could say - "hey, just because a woman dresses up and puts makeup on doesn't mean she's trying to attract someone.
That's kinda irrelevant to the discussion and I see lots of people frequently make the mistake. The advice is about managing risk. If a person wants to dress up attractively, that's their right and, in a perfect world, nothing would happen to them that they don't want. But a lot of actions, not just clothing choices, can draw the attention of a predator. The person needs to be aware that they're making choices which could affect their risk profile. If you want to reduce your risk profile as much as possible, do these things. If you're willing to accept a different risk profile, at least understand what it is.


Shut that **** down." It is a GENERAL, SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY - just as many martial artists purport to possess, that of protecting themselves, their loved ones, and someone in genuine need if logically feasible and sensible.
You seem to be assuming that the "men" in this thread, when suggesting risk mitigation strategies, are somehow absolving the criminal of guilt. This is not the case. Learning how to manage and mitigate risk is a part of the picture. Heck it's a long-standing crime-prevention strategy and is present in all manner of programs and strategies such as CPTED (as one example). You don't put CPTED strategies in place because the criminal bears no responsibility for their actions, you put them in place to reduce your risk.


I'll grab some tums and circle back for your recommendation, but the last I checked when visiting elderly relatives, weapons weren't allowed to be possessed by the nursing home residents.
When did nursing homes come into it? That's the first time the "nursing home" restriction has appeared in this thread. You wrote "old women." I know a lot of old women (I'm related to several). Most of them aren't in nursing homes. You're moving the goal-posts.


Virtually EVERY expert on rape completely disagrees with this. When do YOU think it's about sex?
No they don't. That's just what most focus on; the violent attacks. Other rapes, particularly those which feature inability to consent, frequently are about sex much much more than asserting power and authority. To use the stereotype, when a guy gets a chick blackout drunk so that he can have sex with her, it's both sex and is rape (because she cannot consent). Sometime back there was a nutter who was breaking into houses and performing cunnilingus on women. That was all about his personal sexual bent and not about power and control.

The problem is that humans want simple answers so they can have simple solutions. It's weirdly comforting, somehow, for humans to think that all rapes are about violence and power and sex is just the vehicle because it makes it simple.

So yes, some rapes are about power and control and not about sex. But some are.

As usual, the subject is just a lot more complex than the caricature being presented.
 

Blue Lotus

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Every time I hear the argument that a woman should not dress in such a way or drink or go to parties, I think about our sisters in Muslim countries that dress extremely modestly, it is illegal to drink, and they have to have a male guardian with them in public (in some places) - and yet they are still raped. Sometimes with the consent of that male guardian. Or the woman in England that was raped and murdered by a policeman after following all the recommended protocols, like wearing running shoes, sticking to well lit places, and phoning in to friends before leaving. She wasn't drunk or dressed provocatively and she most likely trusted her attacker.

This tells me that there is much more to rape than the woman looking a certain way or being in a specific place. Telling them to just avoid those situations? It is telling them all can be fixed if you just do these things this certain way. Don't make yourself a target. Why is it that a certain kind of man can't possibly control himself if a woman does or doesn't do certain things?

Robbery/muggings, sure, usually the perpetrator is desperate for some kind of need and flashing a wad of bills around a shady area probably isn't the best of ideas. But a party with friends? And I am not sure I've heard of a mugger getting off because the victim was a target. And certainly not getting off for being a promising young man (not talking juveniles), like that Brock guy from a few years back.

Imagine those parties/clubs if women followed these rules. I don't think they would exist at all.
 

Steve

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The blog in the original post did.
Agreed. While there were some good points, the original blog post was grounded in a couple of highly questionable premises.

One is that women can't learn practical self defense skills without victim blaming; Women have created for themselves some very effective training programs, and they've managed to do so without victim blaming. I included links to one in another thread.

Another is that increasing awareness around issues is ineffective. The article suggests without evidence that cancer awareness is a waste of money. However, we can see all over the world that cancer awareness saves lives. There have even been some scientific studies on the subject on the impact of cancer awareness, like this one: Impact of Cancer Awareness Drive on Generating Understanding and Improving Screening Practices for Breast Cancer: a Study on College Teachers in India
 

JowGaWolf

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It's that disconnect between the big concept of what is wrong, and the details of what that thing actually is. So, in the post above, stealing is wrong, but downloading music somehow doesn't count as stealing.
There is a certain population of people in the world who believe that nothing is wrong until it happens to them or someone they know personally. Other than that they just don't care.
 

Steve

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There is a certain population of people in the world who believe that nothing is wrong until it happens to them or someone they know personally. Other than that they just don't care.
Thats true. Im not talking about that though. Have you ever seen Revenge of the Nerds? Or Animal House? Porkys? All were very popular comedies when I was a kid. We thought they were hilarious and I didnt realize until I was much older that some of the scenes I thought were hilarious were actually depictions of rape. And I was not alone.
 

JowGaWolf

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Thats true. Im not talking about that though. Have you ever seen Revenge of the Nerds? Or Animal House? Porkys? All were very popular comedies when I was a kid. We thought they were hilarious and I didnt realize until I was much older that some of the scenes I thought were hilarious were actually depictions of rape. And I was not alone.
I was too young when I first saw those movies. I didn't understand much of what went on in them. All 3 were movies that I had to sneak to watch. But I do understand what you mean. I go back and watch some of the old movies and think "ewwww. That was popular?" I think that's part of growing up as an individual and as a society.

I think it's good to say. "There's a lot of things that were ok then, but now I see that it's wrong." That should be the norm. That way things will always get better. People should evolve into something better than the previous generation.
 

punisher73

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Thats true. Im not talking about that though. Have you ever seen Revenge of the Nerds? Or Animal House? Porkys? All were very popular comedies when I was a kid. We thought they were hilarious and I didnt realize until I was much older that some of the scenes I thought were hilarious were actually depictions of rape. And I was not alone.
Very true.

Think of how many "Hollywood love scenes" depict the male making some type of advancement on the female and the female slapping him (or something similar) and then he grabs her, pulls her in and kisses her as she struggles and then she suddenly relents to the stereotypical sex scene. Hollywood reinforces a "no doesn't really mean no" attitude and that the female is just "playing hard to get".

A good starting point would be there because most people say that they are against rape, but support shows/movies that show this as a good thing.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Very true.

Think of how many "Hollywood love scenes" depict the male making some type of advancement on the female and the female slapping him (or something similar) and then he grabs her, pulls her in and kisses her as she struggles and then she suddenly relents to the stereotypical sex scene. Hollywood reinforces a "no doesn't really mean no" attitude and that the female is just "playing hard to get".

A good starting point would be there because most people say that they are against rape, but support shows/movies that show this as a good thing.
It surprised me when I saw that in on the waterfront. Vaguely remembered it as romantic as a kid, rewatched it last year and realized it's essentially sexual assault.
 

ballen0351

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It's simple, really - tell me what elderly women in loaded diapers and infants who can't walk can do to reduce their victim ratio? Or are mumus and bibs just that sexy?

Rape is not about sex - it is about control - dominance - power-over. Sex is the weapon.

Get a grip, fellas ... literally.
Sometimes it's about both power and sex. At my current job, we look into massive amounts of Child Rape, Child Pornography (Over 20 million reports a year), and Child Sex Trafficking. In my current position, I have had the unfortunate task of watching interviews and actually interviewing convicted child rapists as well as victims (who we actually call survivors not victims at work per their request). With an emphasis on rapists of young kids under the age of 3. Most of them are not actually attracted to the 1, 2, and 3-year-olds their preference is older children 6-12ish. But that age group can talk and tell and they risk being caught. So they rape younger or in some cases much older (the elderly in diapers) for a sexual release but it's not really their preferred target.
Finding ways to reduce the likely hood of victimization in this age group is what my day-to-day job basically is. It starts with educating adults on what to look for, how to report it, who to report it to. Because as you said those age groups are targeted because they can't defend themselves. I also teach law Enforcement, Prosecutors, and Judges what to do once it is reported. Pre-covid I literally flew around the country doing this. Now it's mostly on zoom but hopefully, in 2022 I can get back on the road.

I think telling the fellas to "get a grip" isn't a great way to restart a conversation on this very important topic because there are several fellas here who have a really good grip on the issues.
 

Steve

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I was too young when I first saw those movies. I didn't understand much of what went on in them. All 3 were movies that I had to sneak to watch. But I do understand what you mean. I go back and watch some of the old movies and think "ewwww. That was popular?" I think that's part of growing up as an individual and as a society.

I think it's good to say. "There's a lot of things that were ok then, but now I see that it's wrong." That should be the norm. That way things will always get better. People should evolve into something better than the previous generation.
Agreed. I would only rephrase it a little to say, There are a lot of things we didnt understand were wrong then, but now we can see it was always wrong. Because, to be sure, the victims knew it was wrong then.
 

drop bear

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Agreed. I would only rephrase it a little to say, There are a lot of things we didnt understand were wrong then, but now we can see it was always wrong. Because, to be sure, the victims knew it was wrong then.

The same guy who also murders about 20 people a movie?
 

dvcochran

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The same guy who also murders about 20 people a movie?
Agree. I feel there is Much more wrong with regards to the violence in movies now a days versus a few decades ago.

Sex and sexualism is a strange creature. Folks can get on their high horse all they want and say "we are above that" but much of what we do in real life and see in movies is modeled after what we see in nature.

This is as much do to with the cancel culture mentality than anything else. Next week dominos will be racist and chess will be offensive.
 

Steve

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The same guy who also murders about 20 people a movie?
I don't get the question. Can you elaborate?

Edit: I don't know if I get the question, but if it's simply that people are murdered in movies, I agree that could be an issue. But the point I'm making is more nuanced than that. Murder is illegal, and most of us would agree that it's immoral. Rape is illegal, and most of us (I hope) would agree that it's also immoral. While we all have a pretty good handle on what murder is, I think some (many) folks don't understand that many of the things portrayed in movies is actually rape and not just harmless hijinks.

On one hand, consider that some movies have scenes which portray rape and they are often troubling to watch. The scene in Animal House when a guy is seriously trying to decide whether to have sex with a coed who is passed out drunk... that isn't intended to be one of them. That was supposed to be funny.

So, the point isn't that rape should never be depicted in movies, nor is it that people generally don't agree that rape (like murder) is wrong. It's more about how movies have the societal influence. If the question is, "Do we need to train kids that rape is wrong?" The answer is, "Well, no, but we could be more intentional and mindful of distinguishing between rape and harmless behaviors."

The last thing I'll say is that it's not one or the other. If you think violence is an issue, you might be on to something. But to use that as an excuse for failing to act in another area is a cop out. Seems like, if anything, we could talk about doing better in both areas. Like saying, "Well, Frank burps in church, so I guess I'll just go ahead and fart."
 
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Steve

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1970s rapey James bond.
I completely missed that... did I bring up James Bond? Either way, he's a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. License to kill is in the promo tagline... but license to rape or sexually assault? The manner in which women were portrayed in pretty much all of those movies is problematic, but by no means exclusive to James Bond.

Watched a documentary on Netflix recently that was really interesting that touches on some of these issues.

This Changes Everything Documentary
 
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