Does anyone think Spirtiuality/Magick/Mysticism/Occultism is very neglected in European swordsmanship (and HEMA in general)?With how Catholic it was?


Yellow Belt
Nov 18, 2021
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People simply don't go for that. They go for the art itself.

If I join a Muay Thai gym, I'm not gonna want to be expected to memorize those chants they do before matches.


Feb 3, 2005
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Huber Heights, OH
I don't understand why Western schools don't dress up training center with awesome non-religous intent aethestcs like paintings of a woman in blue dress and white head cover with blue eyes and brown hair n the min training hall. Or statues of cool Angels swinging a sword?
Because they and their students don't want to. It doesn't fit their social culture. It really isn't that hard.

frank raud

Master of Arts
Mar 23, 2006
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Ottawa, ON
Guess what? None of the stuff I say s heresy at all......

Because you are assuming am a typical Atheist Anglo Saxon. I'm actually Polish and believe me hen my people before me who lived in Europe before my American generation VISITED ITALY frequently as part of Polish traditiion often by tran or car or even by horse. At least a few relatives of mine of mine walked all the way to the Vatican by foot before the Soviet takeover of Poland screwed the religious demographs.

This isn't limited to pre World Wars. Ever heard of Anneliese Michel? Part of non-English Europe is far more conservative than mny people n the Anglo Saxon countries assume as seen by her and how the demons that stalked her s believed by some to have originated by Italy.

And you totally miss the point about Quattrochi. A lot of his traditions may have gotten Amercanized but they are very real in Italy (well at least the still more religious areas like Sardinia). Just because you weren't raised in old school Catholicism doesn't mean he's wrong. The fact you aren't aware at all of stuff like Novenas and blessed objects or protection against unfortunate unlucky situations PERFECT EXAMPLE of how English speaking HEMA practitoners don't really understand the subject at all.

I mean do you even know about the various Saint festivals across Italy esp in the South in places like Corsica and Sardnia? Or the use of scapular for protection? Your posts just signifies a perfect example of how much North Americn Catholicism is so watered down. Pretty much everything Quattorchi rites minus a few practises (that are probably family traditions or localized stuff in vilalges in Sicily) are nothing cultish and out o the norm. They are BASIC CATHOLIC PRACTISES. I hope you don't actually mean you never called upon the Intercession of Saint Archangel Michael in your life? Or placed Mary statues cross the house to form a protective space against Satanic forces? None of this stuff which Quattrochi has a bit in his book (and many more including using Holy Water to bless and empower objects) is underground and occultist at all, hell they aren't unique to Catholicism but are also found in Orthodox Christianity and other Churches including modern High Church Anglican, Coptic, Ethiopian Tewahedo, and hell bunch of other Churches with Apostolic Successions. Quottrochi dd not make anything up, he simply compiled practises so common in Sicily an part of his family line into few books (and almost all of them aren't really anything special, they are basic Catholic sacraments).

You don't even need to bring grammars and other errors up because if you did some googling bout something as basic s Mary as the Theotokos, you'd know that the Eastern Orthodox calls upon Mary's prayers to exorcise a person of a demon and for protection in dangerous situation (something not only in Vito's books but s one of the most barebones basic practices so ubiquitous n Catholicism).

The fact you don't realize how so common candles done to honor Mary is so common not just in Italy but in my ancestor country Poland and cross Portugal and Spain just shows how much you don't know about Catholicism at all. Sure atheism and lax religious practises has been on the rise n Europe. But there are still entire towns and villages in Southern Europe that does common Catholic practises like hanging Rosary on the bed stand for protection while sleeping at night and confession to priests out of paranoia of punishment from God.

Poland may not have been as religiously fanatic as before Hitler's conquest of the nation......... But I can confirm both in my local Polish Americans community and back at home in Poland from relatives living there that local Saints are still so revered esp in conservative parts of the country.

I am pretty sure you weren't raised in a traditional Catholic background because so much stuff in the Benedicaria book and other stuff by Vito like Benedictine Medals as a lucky Talismans against dangers including physical ones like mugging are just barebones practises that anyone who was even forced to attend Church by superstitious parents of a Catholic culture would know about.

It looks like this you who needs to do some basic research on the subjects mentioned because you don't understand anything at all. You are relying a lot on not just hearsay but through secular Anglo Saxon lenses. Honestly all the stuff in the Benedicaria book like prayers to Archangel Raphael and Marian Medals, all this is stuff the Polish immigrant community teaches to children as early as 13 (often even younger since many expat Poles are pretty conservative by American standards).

I mean Vito's mentioning of sacred oil for tranquility and to imbue yourself with God's graces....... Hope you do't mean to tell me you never received it from a priest at your whole life?

True ISIS has a lot of news spinning but it is Islamic traditions.......... So a lot of sketchy stuff... But ever heard of the Cross of Lorraine? You already are wrong on the French stuff because you don't seem aware of the Cross of Lorraine. I don't need to bring up relatives in Europe, the Cross of Lorraine shows flaws n your post.

To an extent many HEMA schools do completely reject even no-religious elements (well this is already a sketchy topc to begn with because of the blurred lines n Medieval Europe).

True avoiding asking for the intercession of Mary in schools I can understand.. But artwork of Mary is basically standard in historical Europe even among the religious lax. Enough that so many non-religious institutions in Medieval and Renaissance Europe like restaurants, banks (to the point even Jewish banks were enforced in public busness areas to have Christian symbols n their workplaces) hell even illegal brothels and weapon smth had paintngs and statues of Mary lying around.

Considering how much dojos of Eastern styles still include Eastern calligraphy and have statues of mythic oriental warrior figures (like OnI) even if they don't practise Buddhism or Shinto, etc, I don't understand why Western schools don't dress up training center with awesome non-religous intent aethestcs like paintings of a woman in blue dress and white head cover with blue eyes and brown hair n the min training hall. Or statues of cool Angels swinging a sword? I mean a lot of those Medieval Artwork look pretty cool even if you remove the religious connotations of an Archangel Raphael wall Mosaic. Michael statues even if you are atheist are so made with sophistication that they give up a very masculine and militaristic vibe! Which makes it bizarre why most schools never set up a statue of an Angel with a sword and shield at the entrance of the training center. Because even devoid of religious associations Angels in plate armor wielding Swords and shields are so wickedly cool looking.
Obviously it is up to you to found a HEMA school replete with religious symbolism and statues so that the true art can be once again appreciated by those of of us who are mere mortals devoid of the arcane knowledge you so obviously possess. Then you could franchise it. McBullsherdogo.