Differences between a Commercial, Non - Commercial and a McDojo school?

[superdave]

Ok.

What is differnce between the types of schools I have listed in the subject line?

Wouldn't any school that charges for the instruction be a commercial school? Or would that definition belong to a school that has a branches on every street corner.

The McDojo, I think I have a grasp on. A school that charges lots of money and awards rank for payment instead of skill.

Your thoughts, please.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by superdave
Ok.

What is differnce between the types of schools I have listed in the subject line?

A commercial school (to my mind at least) would be one where a large portion of the instructor's income comes from running the school.

A non-commercial school is one which charges just enough to keep afloat.

A McDojo tends to overcharge to excess, then charge on top of that for gradings every 3 months, then charge you extra for the official certificates and belt, and also offer you a free small fries with every purchase.

 

[theletch1]

I like the answer given by Aegis. We've got McDojos all over the place around here. I spoken to some of the students that attend them and can't believe they pay that kind of money for what is often times sub-standard training.

We have two or three commercial schools around that appear to be pretty good schools. The instructors are very dedicated and to my knowledge make their living with their schools. I don't know anything about their fee systems.

Most of the schools here are non-commercial, run by guys who are teaching for the love of the art. Some of them teach out of their garages or basements or where ever they can find room to train. Some have small spaces that they rent and charge just enough to pay for the space the insurance the utilities.

To each his own I suppose.

 

[lvwhitebir]

I believe that any school that charges money for lessons is a commercial school, whether for profit or not. Any time you accept money for a service, I believe you are "in business." Usually they are situated in "commercial" space, but sometimes are run out of a home. Of course, with most commercial schools, one purpose of the business is to make money.

Schools that don't charge any fees are non-commercial. They are generally run for the fun of it; a small group gets together, a person teaching friends or neighbors.

A McDojo is extremely difficult to define. One person's McDojo is another person's traditional art. The amount charged is only a small fraction of the whole definition. You can't also use the word "skill" because rank awards are not universal, they may have the skill necessary for their rank, but it is not equivalent to your's. Is that necessarily wrong?

Is there a particular reason for the question?

WhiteBirch

 

[Aegis]

I thought I'd find the dictionary definition of "commercial" to throw into the pot here (taken from dictionary.com):

1. Of or relating to commerce: a commercial loan; a commercial attaché.
2. Engaged in commerce: a commercial trucker.
3. Involved in work that is intended for the mass market: a commercial artist.
4. Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and distributed in large quantities for use by industry.
5. Having profit as a chief aim: a commercial book, not a scholarly tome.
6. Sponsored by an advertiser or supported by advertising: commercial television.
   [/list=1]

1. 
   
   My school charges for lessons, but the instructor only takes his fuel cost out of that. The rest goes back towards running the club and subsidising soacial events. By my definition, we are non-commercial. By yours we are commercial. But there is nothing commercial about it. The instructor teaches because he loves the art, but we still pay...
   
   Again I would put foreward the suggestion that a definition of commercial and non-commercial depends on the goals of the instructor. If he is out to make profit, it is a commercial school. If he is not, it isn't.
   
   
   The McDojo issue is much more complicated than I first mentioned, I agree. generally speaking, a McDojo seems to be defined as somewhere that teaches mediocre techniques at high prices, and tends to have a short time to black belt but with a lot of grades in that short time. All of these are generalisations, and a McDojo may not necessarily exhibit all of the "symptoms", but they do tend to have one thing in common: the students are being ripped off.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir
I believe that any school that charges money for lessons is a commercial school, whether for profit or not. Any time you accept money for a service, I believe you are "in business." Usually they are situated in "commercial" space, but sometimes are run out of a home. Of course, with most commercial schools, one purpose of the business is to make money.

Schools that don't charge any fees are non-commercial. They are generally run for the fun of it; a small group gets together, a person teaching friends or neighbors.

A McDojo is extremely difficult to define. One person's McDojo is another person's traditional art. The amount charged is only a small fraction of the whole definition. You can't also use the word "skill" because rank awards are not universal, they may have the skill necessary for their rank, but it is not equivalent to your's. Is that necessarily wrong?

Is there a particular reason for the question?

WhiteBirch

I agree. If your students are paying your rent, then you are commercial.

:asian:

 

[Damian Mavis]

Why does it seem like everyone is using the term "commercial" like it's a dirty word?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Why does it seem like everyone is using the term "commercial" like it's a dirty word?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Its not a dirty word at all. Buisness is buisness. Associating it with a dirty word like McDojo is another story.

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Because it is. In the end, Cyndi Lauper was right: "money changes everything." Only question is, are the compromises capitalism requires preferable to the compromises earlier economic/social relations demanded...

 

[Nightingale]

my own definitions:

Non-Commercial - training isn't open to everyone. The instructor teaches who he wishes to train when he wishes to train them. this could be in a club setting, garage setting, or whatever, but NOT in a school with a sign in a commercial building on the street.

Commercial - most schools fit into this category. You walk in, pay your fee, and sign up for lessons. Open to the public.

McDojo - a subcategory of Commercial. McDojos are run PRIMARILY for profit. MCDOJOS BENEFIT THE INSTRUCTOR'S POCKETBOOK MORE THAN THEY BENEFIT THE STUDENTS.

 

[pknox]

nightingale8472:

I believe you've hit it squarely on the head.

To me, the distinction between "commercial" and "non-commercial" is not only one of finances, but more of attitude and focus. It's harder to differentiate between those two than a McDojo.

A commercial instructor is more concerned about making a living than anything else, as he/she normally is teaching MA for a living and cannot afford to be "generous". Note this doesn't mean that he/she can't be a good (or great) instructor. Also note that "making a living" is not the same thing as gouging or profiteering at the expense of your students. It just means that you are doing this as a business.

A non-commercial school is one where the instructor isn't concerned about the finances, and may even be willing to lose a little (or even a lot) of money in order to continue training or instructing. The instructor may charge the students, but he/she is only out to cover his/her costs. This is the area where instructional quality varies the most. Sometimes it is truly great, as the person doesn't have to worry about their bottom line and can teach the art the way it was meant to be taught. Other times, the sheer lack of equipment or facilities hamper the teaching. For example, I remember studying kempo in a VFW hall. That was fine until we started doing judo-type throws...on the hardwood floor...because the instructor couldn't afford mats. Quite a few people got hurt - and left.

A McDojo is easy to quantify -- it is always a commercial dojo, often overpriced when compared to other neighborhood dojos, and the instruction is not nearly worth what you pay for it. The instructor is concerned only with profit, even if it means it will result in poor teaching or perversion of the art. When you're paying $15 for the mandatory patch for your uniform, you are probably in a McDojo. When the instructor wants to impress you with all their accomplishments but doesn't want to talk about or show you the art, you should ask for your fries to go. A school I used to study in, where the instructor called me to come in for my green belt test after I had left the school 4 MONTHS PRIOR, immediately comes to mind. That instructor didn't care about his reputation or my development. He wanted the $40 testing fee. McDojo.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Because it is. In the end, Cyndi Lauper was right: "money changes everything." Only question is, are the compromises capitalism requires preferable to the compromises earlier economic/social relations demanded...

Can't disagree with you more. Making money doing something you love that benefits everyone is a terrific dream-come-true.

Being commercial is simply asking a reasonable cost for the services/goods you provide. Commerce is an exchange of goods and services. It's what makes the world go round.

Compromises only have to be made if the perceived value isn't worth the cost.

WhiteBirch

 

[Matt]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Why does it seem like everyone is using the term "commercial" like it's a dirty word?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

He's right. How many of you expect 'non-commercial' plumbers, and are sure that the highest quality ones are the 'non-commercial' ones.

Commercial vs. non-commercial in my mind involves intent.

If a club is founded with the intent to be non-profit, and the instructor takes no pay whether or not dues are charged, I would consider that a non-commercial school. Even college clubs have fees, and I wouldn't consider them commercial.

If a club is founded with the intent that the dues go toward paying the instructor, I would call that a commercial club. This does not necessarily mean it is a bad club. If it makes you feel better, substitute the word 'professional'.

A McDojo is a establishment that is part of a larger chain, with a prescribed curriculum that does not vary significantly from location to location or student to student. This curriculum is not demanding, and proficiency is not a significant factor in advancement when contrasted with attendance and dues paying ability.

how's that?

Matt Barnes

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Matt
A McDojo is a establishment that is part of a larger chain, with a prescribed curriculum that does not vary significantly from location to location or student to student. This curriculum is not demanding, and proficiency is not a significant factor in advancement when contrasted with attendance and dues paying ability.

how's that?

Matt:

Exactly. But do you think it's possible to be a standalone dojo (i.e. not part of a chain) and still be a McDojo? I'm thinking that as long as you subscribe to the same philosophy, it doesn't matter whether you have 1 or 10. Most of them started with just one anyway.