Other than having no forms what sets John Pelligrini's Combat Hapkido apart from the other styles of Hapkido?
Combat Hapkido
- Thread starter Rob Broad
- Start date
Hollywood1340
2nd Black Belt
Hmmm, it was my understanding HKD normaly doesn't have forms to begin with, as it limits sponetnaity (sp). For starters, we kick less and fall less. Or we're supposed to. I'm known for finding the "removed" high lock falls and giving and taking them repeatedly and unloading head high kicks. I think where many go wrong with what CHKD is failure to understand it's usefulness as a martial "tool". It, in my opinion cannot be written off as some claim and acknowledge that what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. Instructor creds are imporant and how they teach the system can make a world of difference in how the system is viewed by those who not only train in it, but those who stand on the sidelines. I'll do my best to answer specifics.
Combat Hapkidoan
Combat Hapkidoan
combat hapkido incorporates elements from other arts besides hapkido, such as jeet kune do and (now) brazilian jujutsu.
there is a pretty comprehensive combat hapkido website that will probably answer a lot of your questions... have you tried googling "combat hapkido"? i think the site is something pretty simple like ichf.com...
there is a pretty comprehensive combat hapkido website that will probably answer a lot of your questions... have you tried googling "combat hapkido"? i think the site is something pretty simple like ichf.com...
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Once upon a time Pelligrini was a WHF member. He left the organization and took a bunch of schools with him. He organized his own curriculum made up of a lot of pieces that he borrowed from a variety of arts. His product is not Hapkido, but rather a derivation OF Hapkido. He uses the name "hapkido" as well as recognition of his own kwan and his attendent 9th degree BB as part of his marketing strategy. Some people like it. Personally I don't but thats just me. As far as the forms (hyung) go most people don't like them because they don't understand them and people have a natural tendency to avoid things they don't understand. Forms have been used as training devices back to at least the 1500-s in Korea and probably before that but you probably won't get modern practitioners to study them as it usually takes more commitment than most KMA practitioners are willing to make. Hey, its just people being people! Can't blame people for wanting to make things easier and simpler on themselves, right? Look what happened with TCC starting with its Chen beginnings! FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Hollywood1340
2nd Black Belt
The base of our system is and always has been HKD. Yes, you can include other elements and they are offered by the ICHF, but the base, the fundementals is HKD.
W
whalen
Guest
As far as the forms (hyung) go most people don't like them because they don't understand them and people have a natural tendency to avoid things they don't understand. Forms have been used as training devices back to at least the 1500-s in Korea and probably before that but you probably won't get modern practitioners to study them as it usually takes more commitment than most KMA practitioners are willing to make. Hey, its just people being people! Can't blame people for wanting to make things easier and simpler on themselves, right?
I find it very confusing Myung Claims Choi yong sool is his instructor. records prove his teacher was Ji,Han jae neither taught or believe in forms.
So is what Myung teaching Hapkido ? or something different Also he claims to be the Head of Taekwon Do yon moo kwan ? We all know That this was a business move so that his organization could receive test fees for both groups.
Remember i was there it is also another reason i left
Hal
artyon:
I find it very confusing Myung Claims Choi yong sool is his instructor. records prove his teacher was Ji,Han jae neither taught or believe in forms.
So is what Myung teaching Hapkido ? or something different Also he claims to be the Head of Taekwon Do yon moo kwan ? We all know That this was a business move so that his organization could receive test fees for both groups.
Remember i was there it is also another reason i left
Hal
artyon:glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Hollywood:
I would need to hold with the idea that Hapkido serves as an underpinning to whatever activity that Pelligrini has organized. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "hapkido" but HE does and I guess he can make a case for that. I know that when he starts his seminars he makes a point of saying that he doesn't teach Hapkido, but again it does seem to form the foundation for his system. For myself, material that represents itself as Hapkido still needs to honor the Three Principles whether one is armed or not. Some of the BJJ material as well as bits taken from sport applications such as Judo don't really do this but I will say again that he could probably call his art Book Banging 101 if thats what he wants to do. My sense is that this is also why the Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido I train in won't match something like BJJ when it comes to groundwork. There is simply not that much groundwork in YMK Hapkido and importing another art would probably put the Three Principles stricture at risk. Seems a whole lot more honest to simply say that Hapkido has this limitation and that should a person want to move in that direction they can follow-up as part of their personal growth. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I would need to hold with the idea that Hapkido serves as an underpinning to whatever activity that Pelligrini has organized. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "hapkido" but HE does and I guess he can make a case for that. I know that when he starts his seminars he makes a point of saying that he doesn't teach Hapkido, but again it does seem to form the foundation for his system. For myself, material that represents itself as Hapkido still needs to honor the Three Principles whether one is armed or not. Some of the BJJ material as well as bits taken from sport applications such as Judo don't really do this but I will say again that he could probably call his art Book Banging 101 if thats what he wants to do. My sense is that this is also why the Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido I train in won't match something like BJJ when it comes to groundwork. There is simply not that much groundwork in YMK Hapkido and importing another art would probably put the Three Principles stricture at risk. Seems a whole lot more honest to simply say that Hapkido has this limitation and that should a person want to move in that direction they can follow-up as part of their personal growth. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Hollywood1340
2nd Black Belt
Bruce,
You can call me James, hollywood is my stage name I think that looking at CHKD as a system in whole creates some confusion. The CHKD system for rank there is no BJJ. No trapping. No cane work. You can get certifed in these, but ground work and the rest are all additions. To a basic core of techniques which can and are found in HKD curriclums world-wide and can be recognized as such. One thing I don't want to do is end up as a CHKD zealot who defends what may be indefensible. But on the other hand I am an active member in the system and orginaztion and have a basic understanding of what is as far as my system goes.
So I guess my big question is if not CHKD, then what is hapkido? What does it take? What differentiates HKD from other arts? And where am I missing things? I say this because my instructor trained for nine years in "Traditional Hapkido". We have a great time finding where GM modifed things, and working backwards to a more traditional approach. In closing, I think I must state that CHKD isn't for everyone. As far as "making things easier" it depends on how you train and who you train with. I'm three years into it and have reached 5th Gup, Blue Belt. I shudder to thing there are those who do it faster. Five years to BB.
Thank you for the discussion!
You can call me James, hollywood is my stage name
I think that looking at CHKD as a system in whole creates some confusion. The CHKD system for rank there is no BJJ. No trapping. No cane work. You can get certifed in these, but ground work and the rest are all additions. To a basic core of techniques which can and are found in HKD curriclums world-wide and can be recognized as such. One thing I don't want to do is end up as a CHKD zealot who defends what may be indefensible. But on the other hand I am an active member in the system and orginaztion and have a basic understanding of what is as far as my system goes. So I guess my big question is if not CHKD, then what is hapkido? What does it take? What differentiates HKD from other arts? And where am I missing things? I say this because my instructor trained for nine years in "Traditional Hapkido". We have a great time finding where GM modifed things, and working backwards to a more traditional approach. In closing, I think I must state that CHKD isn't for everyone. As far as "making things easier" it depends on how you train and who you train with. I'm three years into it and have reached 5th Gup, Blue Belt. I shudder to thing there are those who do it faster. Five years to BB.
Thank you for the discussion!
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear James:
"......So I guess my big question is if not CHKD, then what is hapkido? What does it take? What differentiates HKD from other arts? And where am I missing things? I say this because my instructor trained for nine years in "Traditional Hapkido". We have a great time finding where GM modifed things, and working backwards to a more traditional approach........"
I wish I had some tidy Readers' Digest version that would pull it all together. Unfortunately, I don't. Where I begin to sort things out for myself is at the kwan level which I still believe in quite strongly. I will use myself for an example.
Choi Yong Sul taught Ji Han Jae. Ji Han Jae Taught Kwang Sik Myung and Kwang Sik Myung is my teacher. But if you look at the material and the WAY it is framed, even though Ji was my teachers' teacher, the philosophy of the Yon Mu Kwan varies from how Ji views Hapkido. Taken a step farther the manner in which I express the Yon Mu Kwan ("Group of Martial Striving") is different than how Pelligrini expresses what HE learned from Myung when HE was with the WHF, yet we are both the same generation. Its not so much that there are huge differences in technical expertise as much as the philosophy of the kwan causes those techniques to be dealt with in different ways. A parallel might also be drawn from the many Karate styles which, despite what some people may report can be readily grouped along particular lines save for the teachers philosophies which tended to place different emphasis on different areas. People like to call these different MA styles, but the fact is that its really different teaching priorities.
Getting back to Pelligrini I would say that I do not agree with his particular philosophy. That makes things simple for me. I simply would not be comfortable in his kwan because his philosophy doesn't fit how I see KMA coming together for me. Where I think people go off the deep end is when someone decides that there are "good" kwans and "bad" kwans. Or maybe that organizations are better, the same as, or a fine substitute for, the kwan. In this way, I think it is the judgements that get us into trouble. I have no idea if any of this is coming across as I thought it might. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
"......So I guess my big question is if not CHKD, then what is hapkido? What does it take? What differentiates HKD from other arts? And where am I missing things? I say this because my instructor trained for nine years in "Traditional Hapkido". We have a great time finding where GM modifed things, and working backwards to a more traditional approach........"
I wish I had some tidy Readers' Digest version that would pull it all together. Unfortunately, I don't. Where I begin to sort things out for myself is at the kwan level which I still believe in quite strongly. I will use myself for an example.
Choi Yong Sul taught Ji Han Jae. Ji Han Jae Taught Kwang Sik Myung and Kwang Sik Myung is my teacher. But if you look at the material and the WAY it is framed, even though Ji was my teachers' teacher, the philosophy of the Yon Mu Kwan varies from how Ji views Hapkido. Taken a step farther the manner in which I express the Yon Mu Kwan ("Group of Martial Striving") is different than how Pelligrini expresses what HE learned from Myung when HE was with the WHF, yet we are both the same generation. Its not so much that there are huge differences in technical expertise as much as the philosophy of the kwan causes those techniques to be dealt with in different ways. A parallel might also be drawn from the many Karate styles which, despite what some people may report can be readily grouped along particular lines save for the teachers philosophies which tended to place different emphasis on different areas. People like to call these different MA styles, but the fact is that its really different teaching priorities.
Getting back to Pelligrini I would say that I do not agree with his particular philosophy. That makes things simple for me. I simply would not be comfortable in his kwan because his philosophy doesn't fit how I see KMA coming together for me. Where I think people go off the deep end is when someone decides that there are "good" kwans and "bad" kwans. Or maybe that organizations are better, the same as, or a fine substitute for, the kwan. In this way, I think it is the judgements that get us into trouble. I have no idea if any of this is coming across as I thought it might. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Hollywood1340
2nd Black Belt
Bruce,
No worries. GMP's early history has been talked about a lot and I must admit it does make me wonder a bit now and then. But this is the great thing about we as martial artists and this forum. I do it this way, I see why you do it yours. It's these kind of exchanges what will keep all of us together in some form or another! Thank you again!
No worries. GMP's early history has been talked about a lot and I must admit it does make me wonder a bit now and then. But this is the great thing about we as martial artists and this forum. I do it this way, I see why you do it yours. It's these kind of exchanges what will keep all of us together in some form or another! Thank you again!
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
I tell you, James I truely wish it were that easy. For the life of me I can't see why it wouldn't work in the abstract, but in practice its a real b****. People are willing to let a person come visit all right but its usually with the string attached that one will, sooner or later, be recruited into that persons' way of doing things. CAN it work? Sure, it CAN work but its amazing the amount of resistance one encounters. Just to show how things CAN go down let me share a little experience I had with a regular contributor from right here on this NET.
Kevin ("IRON OX") Sogor runs a Hapkido school in downtown Chicago. I was stopping in and organizing some things for an event I was planning on participating in this last June. One of the issues was a particular technique (Spinning ax kick) and I absolutely HATE that technique. We went off to one side and deconstructed the technique and got a number of points established so that the technique made sense and there were notable landmarks to watch for as I practiced and built competence. Now, Kevin is not WHF and I am not International Hapkido. We both respect the integrity of the approaches we use but there was never, at any time, pressure to adopt a particular take on things. There was never a matter of "why do you want to do that?" or "...but in OUR style you..." It was two dedicated KMA putting their heads together and problem-solving for the benefit of one or both people. Now I can tell you the same story about Anthony New (Ft Wayne, Ind), Dakin Burdick (Bloomington, Ind) and several other folks from both Rudy Timmermans' group as well as JR Wests' group, so this approach is possible. The problem is that there are so many MORE of the other folks who are worried about turf, recruitment and image. It takes Character to be able to work out of ones' own box with no particular advantage or pay-off in mind. Know what I mean?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Kevin ("IRON OX") Sogor runs a Hapkido school in downtown Chicago. I was stopping in and organizing some things for an event I was planning on participating in this last June. One of the issues was a particular technique (Spinning ax kick) and I absolutely HATE that technique. We went off to one side and deconstructed the technique and got a number of points established so that the technique made sense and there were notable landmarks to watch for as I practiced and built competence. Now, Kevin is not WHF and I am not International Hapkido. We both respect the integrity of the approaches we use but there was never, at any time, pressure to adopt a particular take on things. There was never a matter of "why do you want to do that?" or "...but in OUR style you..." It was two dedicated KMA putting their heads together and problem-solving for the benefit of one or both people. Now I can tell you the same story about Anthony New (Ft Wayne, Ind), Dakin Burdick (Bloomington, Ind) and several other folks from both Rudy Timmermans' group as well as JR Wests' group, so this approach is possible. The problem is that there are so many MORE of the other folks who are worried about turf, recruitment and image. It takes Character to be able to work out of ones' own box with no particular advantage or pay-off in mind. Know what I mean?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
iron_ox
Black Belt
Hello all,
Had to chime in here. Thanks Bruce, but to add to that, I think that apart from anything else, we RESPECT each other a great deal, so even if we have different opinions on some issues in the long run who cares? We can train together, learn together, and not worry about the recruitment stuff -
Often times, I think it is perceived that having a different opinion, especially on a chat room, means that there is some underlying animosity between those people, usually, this could not be further from the truth - opinions are just that, and they make for good discussion - but even when Bruce and I disagree on something, we find commonality in several other areas...
All things are well when you train harder...
Sincerely,
Kevin Sogor
Had to chime in here. Thanks Bruce, but to add to that, I think that apart from anything else, we RESPECT each other a great deal, so even if we have different opinions on some issues in the long run who cares? We can train together, learn together, and not worry about the recruitment stuff -
Often times, I think it is perceived that having a different opinion, especially on a chat room, means that there is some underlying animosity between those people, usually, this could not be further from the truth - opinions are just that, and they make for good discussion - but even when Bruce and I disagree on something, we find commonality in several other areas...
All things are well when you train harder...
Sincerely,
Kevin Sogor
I think one of the things that set Combat Hapkido apart from the others is Grandmaster Pellegrini's attitude..Before finding the ICHF I experienced a handful of different schools/systems via seminars to see which would be more applicable for me..
I found rude,insulting and narrowminded instructors who spent more time telling stories than demonstrating techniques..The classes were long and boring and I couldn't wait for the day to end..After spending the money on the seminar,hotel room and driving half the night to get there it was a real let down..
I met GM P 2 years ago and mere words fail to describe how much I enjoy his seminars, he puts ALL in attendence at ease with his easygoing and charismatic way of teaching..I hate to see the day end when I attend one of his seminars..That's my opinion..
Drac
I found rude,insulting and narrowminded instructors who spent more time telling stories than demonstrating techniques..The classes were long and boring and I couldn't wait for the day to end..After spending the money on the seminar,hotel room and driving half the night to get there it was a real let down..
I met GM P 2 years ago and mere words fail to describe how much I enjoy his seminars, he puts ALL in attendence at ease with his easygoing and charismatic way of teaching..I hate to see the day end when I attend one of his seminars..That's my opinion..
Drac
Hollywood1340
2nd Black Belt
:d
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Drac:
".....I found rude,insulting and narrowminded instructors who spent more time telling stories than demonstrating techniques..The classes were long and boring and I couldn't wait for the day to end..After spending the money on the seminar,hotel room and driving half the night to get there it was a real let down..
I met GM P 2 years ago and mere words fail to describe how much I enjoy his seminars, he puts ALL in attendence at ease with his easygoing and charismatic way of teaching..I hate to see the day end when I attend one of his seminars..That's my opinion.."
In just that single post of yours I can see a number of things that easily get mashed together that really need to be kept separate. Heres' a few examples using myself.
a.) I has a lot of personal issues with Pelligrini as a person and these stem from his deportment when he was with the WHF. The reason I mention this is because this string is about the ICHF and these two spheres of information, while related in many ways, need to be kept separate.
b.) I am not in agreement with the way Pelligrini has organized his material or where he has drawn it from. Again, the reason I mention this is that while I don't agree with his choices, it is plain from your post along that he is meeting people needs with his material and once again these things need to be kept separate.
c.) Lastly, one cannot discount what OTHER people do with material that they are exposed to. By this I mean that people who study HKD, ICHF, TKD, TSD etc etc will eventually put they own agenda or spin on what they are doing. When they identify what they do as "ICHF", say, to an outsider the conclusion by that outsider may be that what they are seeing is identical to the original Pelligrini material and it may not be. (Hope this last makes sense).
Best Wishes,
Bruce
".....I found rude,insulting and narrowminded instructors who spent more time telling stories than demonstrating techniques..The classes were long and boring and I couldn't wait for the day to end..After spending the money on the seminar,hotel room and driving half the night to get there it was a real let down..
I met GM P 2 years ago and mere words fail to describe how much I enjoy his seminars, he puts ALL in attendence at ease with his easygoing and charismatic way of teaching..I hate to see the day end when I attend one of his seminars..That's my opinion.."
In just that single post of yours I can see a number of things that easily get mashed together that really need to be kept separate. Heres' a few examples using myself.
a.) I has a lot of personal issues with Pelligrini as a person and these stem from his deportment when he was with the WHF. The reason I mention this is because this string is about the ICHF and these two spheres of information, while related in many ways, need to be kept separate.
b.) I am not in agreement with the way Pelligrini has organized his material or where he has drawn it from. Again, the reason I mention this is that while I don't agree with his choices, it is plain from your post along that he is meeting people needs with his material and once again these things need to be kept separate.
c.) Lastly, one cannot discount what OTHER people do with material that they are exposed to. By this I mean that people who study HKD, ICHF, TKD, TSD etc etc will eventually put they own agenda or spin on what they are doing. When they identify what they do as "ICHF", say, to an outsider the conclusion by that outsider may be that what they are seeing is identical to the original Pelligrini material and it may not be. (Hope this last makes sense).
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Hollywood1340
2nd Black Belt
glad2bhere said:
All very exellent points.
A question for all you CHKD'ers:
I went on the Budo International site and took a look at the Master in action. It seemed like alot of his defensive movement resolved to, after slipping a punch getting both hands on the opponents wrist, with the opponents wrist and elbow bent and above him, and he was spinning under it, getting a lock and a throw out of the action. This reminds me alot of the first pictures I saw of Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and other Aikidoists.
Is there alot of this in Combat Hapkido?
Are there any sites you know of where I can see examples of CHKD?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
I went on the Budo International site and took a look at the Master in action. It seemed like alot of his defensive movement resolved to, after slipping a punch getting both hands on the opponents wrist, with the opponents wrist and elbow bent and above him, and he was spinning under it, getting a lock and a throw out of the action. This reminds me alot of the first pictures I saw of Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, and other Aikidoists.
Is there alot of this in Combat Hapkido?
Are there any sites you know of where I can see examples of CHKD?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Somebody told me once that when a person is raised up as a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I mention this because a significant part of Hapkido is to be exposed to a wide range of techniques and make a handful of them you own personal "tool box". Now YOUR TOOLBOX may not be identical to mine, but that will be because we are two different people. The ICHF material is drawn from a number of places. Some of it is Judo, and some of it Ju-jutsu and Katae and wrestling and so forth. What you are describing sounds like one of about 15 different techniques in traditional Hapkido. Those may also have a number of permutations. But if you think the idea of Hapkido is to parry a strike grab a wrist and throw I need to tell you that you are only examining one "part of the elephant". The intent of Hapkido is to stop the fight. If I can do it by apologizing or buying a guy a beer--- thats still Hapkido. If I have to dislocate a shopulder or put an eye out THAT is Hapkido also. Saying that the technique you described might be Hapkido is like saying that changing sparkplugs might be automobile maintanence, yes? :idunno:
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
