Chi Sau vs Sparring

[7starmantis]

There has been some debate lately about sparring. Is it neccessary, when should you start sparring, should it be full contact, and out of these has come some questions about chi sau. There are those who believe chi sau has its uses and those who dont. What do you think? Does your school or do you practice chi sau? If so do you use it as a drill, standing, moving, no contact, light contact, slow, speed, full speed, etc?

What is the difference between sparring and chi sau? In my book its simply semantics. We practice chi sau very slow at the beginning. In our school you dont even get to touch hands until your an intermediate student. Then its very very slow and hands only. Then it picks up speed and power and then at the black level you start using feet as well. Then its full speed, and full contact. Of course we aren't tryin to break knees or gauge out each others eyes. There are those however that feel chi sau doesn't teach true fighting, that it lacks a realistic base and doesn't live up to "sparring". I assume sparring is using gear and such, in chi sau we use no gear.

Ok, so what are your thoughts on the matter? Do you practice chi sau? If so for what reasons? How do you practice it and what do you feel you are getting out of it?

7sm

 

[clfsean]

Being a longfist system, no chi sau for me. I see the advantages of it when dealing with something similar, but not so much so (lack of experience speaking) when dealing with something that bridges long like CLF, BSL, HG, etc...

As far as sparring... that's a judgement call. In my school, we don't spar until 2 man drills can be done full tilt with the safeties removed & still nobody dies. I haven't quite got there just yet. The problem with "sparring" as many schools see it, is that it's tag. It's not wade in & win the conflict. It's not use kung fu, it's get in & kickbox. You see where I'm heading with it. Until you can use your chosen KF skills as they are done in drills & 2 man work, with obvious modifications for stances/timing/footwork/etc... , and it not become kickboxing, then sparring should be avoided. Literally when you can pull off something out of a set & it looks like KF (think Shaw Bros classics) constantly, then you're fighting with KF & not kickboxing.

 

[Isrephael]

I believe sparring to be incredibly important to the study of CMA, and MA in general. You can study forms and drills all day long, but the first time someone slams a fist into you, the whole dynamic changes. In my opinion, the most important martial skill someone can learn is the willingness and ability to be hit. Too many people freak out the first time they taste their own blood.

As far as chi sao goes... The detractors need to spend some time sparring with some instructor/master level types. Once someone good puts the sticky palms on you, it's rediculously frustrating, as all your attempts are trapped or yielded away. It's enough to make you pull back and scream "STOP TOUCHING ME!!!"

In our school, we work several different chi sao drills: single hand/arm, double hand/arm, legs, body, or a combination of any of the above. Speedwise, we govern it by pairing newer students with more experienced ones. That way, if the newbie gets too excited and too fast (and thereby too unresponsive), the senior student can just toss him and show him the error of his ways.

 

[clfsean]

I believe sparring to be incredibly important to the study of CMA, and MA in general. You can study forms and drills all day long, but the first time someone slams a fist into you, the whole dynamic changes. In my opinion, the most important martial skill someone can learn is the willingness and ability to be hit. Too many people freak out the first time they taste their own blood.

Well it's a contact game from the word "Go". If someone's unwilling to be hit... take up needle point. I'm not willing though to give up proper technique & skill just to go kickbox...

 

[SwedishChef]

Unless its a close range style I think chi sau is a waste of time. In Sil Lum Chuan Tao we did it. But I always thought of our style as long range. As I've said on some other posts it closely resembles kenpo. I never got why we did it but in styles like wing chun I think its essential. If you're up in the guy's face you need to be able to read his movements. But you also need the sparring drills to learn to close the distance quickly. Start with one step and work towards completely non-cooperative sparring to give as authentic feel as possible.

 

[BruceCalkins]

There has been some debate lately about sparring. Is it neccessary, when should you start sparring, should it be full contact, and out of these has come some questions about chi sau. There are those who believe chi sau has its uses and those who dont. What do you think? Does your school or do you practice chi sau?

Yes we work with Chi Sau for defense. The drills of constant contact in chi sau and sensitivity drills let us antisipate the oponents next move.

If so do you use it as a drill, standing, moving, no contact, light contact, slow, speed, full speed, etc?

All of the above. We also do a fun drill where we wear White T-Shirts and dip out finger tips in Jello Syrup and try to touch the other.

What is the difference between sparring and chi sau? In my book its simply semantics. We practice chi sau very slow at the beginning. In our school you dont even get to touch hands until your an intermediate student. Then its very very slow and hands only. Then it picks up speed and power and then at the black level you start using feet as well. Then its full speed, and full contact. Of course we aren't tryin to break knees or gauge out each others eyes. There are those however that feel chi sau doesn't teach true fighting, that it lacks a realistic base and doesn't live up to "sparring". I assume sparring is using gear and such, in chi sau we use no gear.

Like many arts some adaptation is nessicary. I believe that you can use chi sau during a fight once you have made contact and we also train the "Contact No Contact Drills" Where we don't touch but if you look from a distance it looks like we are locked because we match movement. For Point Sparing I feel that in gets you in too close and a point is very possible against you. But for the Street I feel that it gives you more control of your opponent.


7sm

Great questions.. But it is always best to try it for yourself and see "If You Like It."

 

[jfarnsworth]

Chi Sao is done at our school. Moving slowly, starting with hands only AND always staying in contact. We try to look in the opposite direction of our partner to understand the "feel" of the drill. Eventually we move into adding feet into the drill. Then we work into throws and joint locks as well but only after the other 2 have been covered first and the individuals are using sensitivity not visualizing and speeding up.
As for sparring, it is done on a seperate day as a seperate class. There you put the pads on and fight. It's not full contact but as long as everyone is in agreeance on the level of hitting then we have no problems. We need both drills. We need to be able to cover the 4 ranges of combat respectively in their drills to be proficient. :asian:

 

[brothershaw]

To CLFSean- I too wish kung fu tournys looked more like a shaw brothers fight scene, but thats off topic.

Chi Sau isnt sparring although it can get a little rough,and I dont think you could learn to fight from JUST chi sau, but it does give you a good feel for openings, etc., etc. and if you are lucky you wont wind up fighting a person who practices wing chun or some other close range style, so you may have a leg up.

I guess sometimes people look to the wrong things for fighting skills and then that leads to people looking like crap,because some drills, forms etc are really just for building particular skills, not the entire fighting package and the teacher may not know this himself either.

 

[sifu Adams]

Good Topic 7*.

In my style I sometimes think we start sparing to early. Chi Sau is important however I think you can better understand it once you done free sparing. If you get a chance spar someone from another style likd TKD. I am not a fan of TKD however I think you would find the first time you spar them you may not fair to well. but once you take that knowlage back and match it up to your training you will make some minor changes in the way you do your tech. to better help your self. I like two man sets however if your blocking befor the your parner punches it wont help in sparing. Same with kata and slow sparing. I practic my katas like I am free sparing. I vision the punch block and counter. Example. I like dragon sweeping TKD base legs. but it took me getting kicked a few times and reworking my sweep to get lower and learning to set them up before I got to the point I could pull it off. I seen it the first time I spared TKD however the move didnot work because I had never tryed it in real time sparing.

 

[Spook]

Unless its a close range style I think chi sau is a waste of time.

Chi Sau is applicable any time you make contact with another person no matter if they are close or far away. In Wing Chun we teach many situations where distance is applied to Chi Sau.

 

[7starmantis]

Great questions.. But it is always best to try it for yourself and see "If You Like It."

Um...you did read my entire post didn't you? Everyone is so quick to assume that someone asking a question has no esperience in what they are asking. I practice Chi Sau for at least an hour a day. I do like it.

Chi Sau isnt sparring although it can get a little rough,and I dont think you could learn to fight from JUST chi sau, but it does give you a good feel for openings, etc., etc.

Whats the difference? Maybe if you outline what is different between "sparring" and "chi sau" in your opinion I could better understand your point. I dont see why chi sau can't teach you to fight. What does "sparring" hold that "chi sau" lacks?

7sm

 

[archmagician]

In my opinion there are differences between Sparring and Chi Sau.

1. Sparring does not usually start from a predetermined stance. In Chi Sau, people usually start with their hands touching

2. Chi Sau does not usually allow throws, grappling, takedowns, sparring is usually more permissive of such tactics.

3. Sparring allows people to take a long range approach to fighting and in chi sau the goal is to stick together.

My .02

Sorry for being absent for so long...my work was burying me.

 

[dscott]

The question shouldn't be Chi Sau vs. Sparring because Chi Sau IS sparring. It's the sparring of in-close clinching techniques. Sparring can consist of many different types of techniques (boxing range, kicking range, trapping range and grappling range).

 

[7starmantis]

In my opinion there are differences between Sparring and Chi Sau.

1. Sparring does not usually start from a predetermined stance. In Chi Sau, people usually start with their hands touching

2. Chi Sau does not usually allow throws, grappling, takedowns, sparring is usually more permissive of such tactics.

3. Sparring allows people to take a long range approach to fighting and in chi sau the goal is to stick together.

My .02

Sorry for being absent for so long...my work was burying me.

I guess it all depends on whom you have practiced chi sau with. In our school our chi sau (or jeem lim sau) allows long range fighting, although our goal is to close the gap and stay close, but there are many, many times when close range is broken. We also allow throws, grappling and takedowns, its not fighting without those is it? We do not start from hands touching or a predetermined position most of the time, in the beginners drills for chi sau, yes, but not in advanced free fighting. So that being said, I am still curious as to what sparring holds over "chi sau" that teaches you so much about fighting.

7sm

 

[Spook]

I guess it all depends on whom you have practiced chi sau with. In our school our chi sau (or jeem lim sau) allows long range fighting, although our goal is to close the gap and stay close, but there are many, many times when close range is broken. We also allow throws, grappling and takedowns, its not fighting without those is it? We do not start from hands touching or a predetermined position most of the time, in the beginners drills for chi sau, yes, but not in advanced free fighting. So that being said, I am still curious as to what sparring holds over "chi sau" that teaches you so much about fighting.

7sm

Same here at our school. Chi Sau is such a practicle tool, it seems odd that some would practice such a limited form of it, such as minus throws, only close, etc.

Just goes to show every school is different.

 

[7starmantis]

So no one has anything to offer for what sparring has that chi sau is missing?

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

From my viewpoint/ training chi sau is not fighting period. Its a training tool to develop sensitivity, find openings, learn how to cover your own centerline and on and on. Its not about being able to win , or beat somebody up or get off kicking combos,its not about endurance ( although your arms may get tired, and if might be tiring if you are out of shape).
Comparing chi sau to sparring or fighting is like comparing BJJ/judo guys rolling ( as they call it ) to actual fighting. It may give you some good tools to use in a fight per se, but its a different structure than fighting or sparring where someone is trying to beat you into submission as opposed to just learning how to feel the ebb and flow of an exchange and develop sensitivity to an opponent,moves and counter moves.
You could also be the best chi sau person in the world but that doesnt mean you will know how to fight, hit hard or take a hit, or have good footwork.

Sparring can help you learn those things ( hit, take a hit , footwork, combos etc.) so sparring definitely has its place as does chi sau (especially if you do wing chun), but the 2 are not the same and one cant really replace the other.

 

[7starmantis]

I think your just not experienced in advanced chi sau. It is about endurance, taking a hit, footwork, etc. How does what you do in sparring differ from what you do in chi sau, specifically? See, I think its just a matter of not defining chi sau. The chi sau we do is full contact, you get hit, grabbed, thrown, locked, grappled, etc.

Your definition, learnign the "ebb and flow" is the beginners drill for chi sau, not advanced free fighting chi sau.

7sm

 

[eyebeams]

So no one has anything to offer for what sparring has that chi sau is missing?

7sm

Both sticking and push hands are all about cross-hands range. Cross-hands is funny, in that it's the range you'll be in for the least amount of time, but what you do there can make or break the whole thing. It's the door you do "in" to strike close or grapple or "out" to kick or use longer hand techniques. But of you cannot apply any of this decisively, then your ability to manipulate this range doesn't matter much. Anybody who trains cross-hands/trapping distance a lot needs to spar to learn how ephemeral that range actually is.

Finally, you need to know how to take a punch and keep on going. It's that simple.

 

[eyebeams]

I think your just not experienced in advanced chi sau. It is about endurance, taking a hit, footwork, etc. How does what you do in sparring differ from what you do in chi sau, specifically? See, I think its just a matter of not defining chi sau. The chi sau we do is full contact, you get hit, grabbed, thrown, locked, grappled, etc.

Your definition, learnign the "ebb and flow" is the beginners drill for chi sau, not advanced free fighting chi sau.

7sm

Then you're asking a trick question, really, because Chi Sau with hard contact techniques, takedowns and full footwork is what most folks call "sparring." What you're actually asking is:

"How does sparring from one starting (cross-hands) position vary from sparring from another position?"