Chi Nas/Qinna instructionals!!

[bigfootsquatch]

http://www.56.com/u98/v_MTg2MDYzNjc.html

http://www.56.com/u72/v_MjA0OTE0Nzc.html

http://www.56.com/u52/v_MjA0OTE0NTc.html

There may be a few more on there, but those are different videos from the Chin Na in Depth series by Yang Jwing Ming, enjoy!

 

[Steel Tiger]

The Chin Na in Depth series is available at Amazon as well. Quite a reasonable price too.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

OH CRAP, I didnt even think about them being copyrighted! Thanks Steel Tiger, I'm going to get those links removed. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[xiongnu_lohon]

I think the best material on qin na is this book by Zhao Da Yuan & Tim Cartmell. There are also companion DVDs available. I love Yang Jwing-Ming but the Cartmell stuff breaks down the mechanics behind all qin na and it also shows over 30 entries to set up qin na techniques.

I recommend Tim Cartmell's material because it will give you the theory & background to figure out how to do qin na in any style.

 

[JadeDragon3]

A book called Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na is really good. Written by Dr. Dwang Ming Jing. It gives full details and pictures of how to do each technique. It also gives the counter for it or how to block the technique. Really good book with lots of information.

 

[clfsean]

Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.

People think "grab & lock" & it's qinna. That's problem #2. You grab me without taking my attention off of it is only going to get you hit, kicked or worse since you've taken one or both of your hands & occupied them with grabbing silliness. Tim Cartmell shows it with entries apparently. I've not seen it but I'm willing to bet he's shown hitting people or other things to move their attention away from the lock. I'll have to look into this book.

Dr Yang shows a lot of good stuff in his books, but they're only books. That's problem #3. They don't adequately show body positioning, leverage, angles & such. They're great for reference if you already know what he's doing or something similar in technique & theory. The best way to learn qinna ... learn a TCMA.

 

[kaizasosei]

these clips are simply awesome. thanks for posting.

 

[xiongnu_lohon]

Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.

People think "grab & lock" & it's qinna. That's problem #2. You grab me without taking my attention off of it is only going to get you hit, kicked or worse since you've taken one or both of your hands & occupied them with grabbing silliness. Tim Cartmell shows it with entries apparently. I've not seen it but I'm willing to bet he's shown hitting people or other things to move their attention away from the lock. I'll have to look into this book.

Dr Yang shows a lot of good stuff in his books, but they're only books. That's problem #3. They don't adequately show body positioning, leverage, angles & such. They're great for reference if you already know what he's doing or something similar in technique & theory. The best way to learn qinna ... learn a TCMA.

It's hard to describe what makes the Cartmell book unique. The "entrances" I mentioned aren't about hitting a person or something like that. It's like a catalog of all the different wrapping, coiling, grabbing motions that lead into a joint lock. The "entrances" are just all the things you do to leead into a joint lock. Then he gets into the basic principles of joint locking(fulcrums, 1st class levers, 2nd class levers etc.) and he also gives you a list of best-practices' for joint-locking such as "lock above, seperate below" etc.

Obviously other styles have joint-locking techniques. This thread is about qin na, not aikido or ju-jitsu. The Cartmell book will help anyone in cma understand everything about joint-locking. It's just a set of techniques broken down. It's really in-depth and a useful reference for people in cma. As to the tactical application of such a move in a san da(sport) match or in a nhb fight or whatever that's beyond the scope of the book. I hope that helps.

If you're in cma you need to know about qin na - and this book will help you do that in a way no other book can. I can't recommend the book enough. As usual Cartmell does an excellent job.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.

People think "grab & lock" & it's qinna. That's problem #2. You grab me without taking my attention off of it is only going to get you hit, kicked or worse since you've taken one or both of your hands & occupied them with grabbing silliness. Tim Cartmell shows it with entries apparently. I've not seen it but I'm willing to bet he's shown hitting people or other things to move their attention away from the lock. I'll have to look into this book.

Dr Yang shows a lot of good stuff in his books, but they're only books. That's problem #3. They don't adequately show body positioning, leverage, angles & such. They're great for reference if you already know what he's doing or something similar in technique & theory. The best way to learn qinna ... learn a TCMA.

Agreed, kinda.

Absolutely right that you need to somehow not give away what you are going to do in Qinna and in most cases you need to distract the person you are going to lock. I have only come across one person that did not do this and was successful every time and that is my Taiji sifu. But what he is doing is being very patient and waiting for you to put something where it should not be and BANG you are locked. I have, for the most part, been able to tell when someone was going to try to use Qinna and in many cases I could counter (not all). I did push hands with Dr Yang and although I knew he was going for a lock I could not counter. My sifu I cannot tell I am just all of a sudden locked. My Sanda sifu is much like Dr Yang, I can tell but I can't counter and if I do counter he changes to Shuaijiao or just plane kicking and punching, but I can tell when he is going for a lock. When I asked my Taiji sifu why I can't tell when he is going to use Qinna his answer was "You lock yourself"

But then my Taiji sifu has been training taiji and only taiji for over 50 years

 

[Scott McElroy]

Ancient Qinna practitioners did something much different than most do today! This my friends is extreme iron claw hand and wrist conditioning. This is a method of the TCMA that is becoming lost today. If your hands and body are properly conditioned you will be able to utilize the art as it was intended. If not you will get yourself hurt or killed if you try to use a technique on someone that was intended for use from a fully conditioned practitioner. When I'm talking extreme hand and body conditioning, I'm talking about hands and wrists that can bend and break steel wrenches, twist up horseshoes and roll frying pans into tube shapes. In other words you would have hands and wrists that could easily snap through bones, tear through muscle and separate tendons!! This conditioning is not a pipe dream nor is any part of it fake parlor tricks.
If you want to learn more about it go to my website and check it out.

All the best,
Scott McElroy
Iron Claw Master Practitioner
www.ironclawtraining.com

 

[Doc_Jude]

Despite being a shameless plug, thanks for the post! I'll be checking it out!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Scott maybe you could start another thread regarding your training techniques?

As to this thread let's return to the origional topic!

 

[kaizasosei]

the coolest thing of all is that i got the book 'shaolin chin na-instructors manual' for christmas. on the site, along the the three clips posted above, by entering yang jwing ming on the search function, there were a few more clips including the entire over hour long video turned digital clip that goes along with the book.

the clip was invaluable. there is much more new stuff than i thought. i nevertheless, studied every video clip, documenting the entire video by transcribing it to paper. and i have confirmed i can still understand the moves with only the written descriptions that i made. although the clips are all still viewable.

great stuff. - thanks again for the link. that was the greatest thing of all, without which my present wouldnt have meant as much. the video is very good showing, slow,regular and closeup shots.

j

 

[kaizasosei]

sorry forgot to mention the video clip is called 'shaolin chin na'. and i think the other 3-6 clips are various segments of another chin na specialized dvd.

j

 

[Doc_Jude]

Qinna isn't exclusive to CMA. That's problem #1. People say qinna & think "oooh... CMA". Locking can be found from almost every culture with a martial tradition. Put a different name on it & there you go. Qinna but not... since it's a different language.

I don't agree. It's like saying that Ninjutsu is not exclusive to JMAs. It's ludicrous. Obviously, the use of stealth, poisons, or espionage is not exclusive to JMAs, but the systems and cataloged methods within "Ninjutsu" is singular. Chin Na methods are pretty unique, when I compare it to the JJJ that I've done over the years.

 

[kaizasosei]

the techniques are excellent. in many examples, the techniques are so deceptive, i think that there is often no need for any striking.
of course against difficult situations or opponents, some moves could be more difficult. however, the moves work. some work easier some are difficult but the moves work.
this applies also to other good teachings too. not just cma. there are always things to learn everywhere.
even in china, there are probably several schools of chin na. each person will have their own understanding too.
however, i have to say that it is nice that there is no striking included, because all i wanted to see is exactly all those locks and the principles that make them work. for this, one needs to watch the clips really closely if necessary several times..



j

 

[Doc_Jude]

Chin Na in Depth series by Yang Jwing Ming, enjoy!

I have these, they're excellent.

 

[clfsean]

I don't agree. It's like saying that Ninjutsu is not exclusive to JMAs. It's ludicrous. Obviously, the use of stealth, poisons, or espionage is not exclusive to JMAs, but the systems and cataloged methods within "Ninjutsu" is singular. Chin Na methods are pretty unique, when I compare it to the JJJ that I've done over the years.

Well it's pretty ludicruous to draw that conclusion without knowing what I'm drawing my conclusions from, which is 26+ years in the MA, 4 of which were in the Bujinkan (BTW) and 1 year in Aikido. The last 10 have been in CMA.

And Ninjutsu is exclusive to JMA... because of the name, organization of techniques, skills, etc...

The techniques themself though aren't limited to JMA or Ninpo exclusively. I've done plenty of of locking, grabbing, throwing, etc... that I did in Ninpo and Aikido in CMA. The ideas might've been a little different, techniques applied a little more "this way" than "that way", but the result, mechanics, etc... were the same, especially the end result of the opponent immobilized & in pain.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Well it's pretty ludicruous to draw that conclusion without knowing what I'm drawing my conclusions from, which is 26+ years in the MA, 4 of which were in the Bujinkan (BTW) and 1 year in Aikido. The last 10 have been in CMA.

And Ninjutsu is exclusive to JMA... because of the name, organization of techniques, skills, etc...

The techniques themself though aren't limited to JMA or Ninpo exclusively. I've done plenty of of locking, grabbing, throwing, etc... that I did in Ninpo and Aikido in CMA. The ideas might've been a little different, techniques applied a little more "this way" than "that way", but the result, mechanics, etc... were the same, especially the end result of the opponent immobilized & in pain.

Yes, yes, yes. There are grappling arts everywhere that result in pain for the "grappled". However, it IS the little differences that make these arts unique. There are Chin Na methods that I've never seen in JJJ or Bujinkan or any other grappling art that I've spent time with. Even the Small Circle Jujutsu that I've done didn't have the extensive coverage of finger manipulation.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Qinna is well.... Qinna :EG:

Everything else is joint locking :uhyeah:

Qinna by definition is "joint locking" and "muscle and tendon tearing", it is not pretty and it is incredibly painful to train, as is just about any other style that uses a similar joint locking system.

But in CMA Qinna can be just that Qinna and that is what you train and all you train...Qinna.

Or it can be part of another CMA style and just about every CMA style has Qinna in it to varying degrees, some more than others. Same goes for
Shuaijiao it is an art all to itself and it is also to in every other CMA to varying degrees.

Qinna is not Judo, Jujitsu, MMA, BJJ, Kempo, Taiji, Wing Chun, Bujinkan, TKD or JKD. They all may have something form Qinna in them but they are not Qinna. There is a WHOLE hand strengthening training that goes along with Qinna that I HIGHLY doubt most of us (including me) do.

As for Dr Yang's books, I liked them.