Chen Vs. Yang
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East Winds
2nd Black Belt
JeffJ,
A very simple question, which has unfortunately got no simple answer! I would say it depends on which type of "Yang" is being taught. I have seen people in tie-dyed pants standing in a circle with a candle in the middle claiming to be doing "Yang" style Taijiquan. I have seen the Taoist Tai Chi Society's mutilated "Yang" style. I have seen the modern 24 and 88 step Wushu "Yang" styles. I have seen the Cheng Man-ching "Yang" style and lots of in between "Yang" styles. Finally what I practise and several other people on this board - Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. There is usually less variation in Chen style teaching. You either learn "old" or "new" Chen. As to which one to go for? Go and look and see for yourself and make up your own mind. Both Chen and Traditional Yang are martial forms. Some of the other "Yang" styles are inventions by people "who don't do that nasty martial stuff!"
Sorry if all this sounds a bit cynical. (Perhaps Xue Sheng has finally gotten through to me!!!!!). But good luck and let us know how you get on.
Incidentally, he Old Chen Form (Laojia) has exactly the same sequence of moves as section 1 of Traditional Yang. They are of course performed in an entirely different way!!
Very best wishes
Alistair Sutherland
A very simple question, which has unfortunately got no simple answer! I would say it depends on which type of "Yang" is being taught. I have seen people in tie-dyed pants standing in a circle with a candle in the middle claiming to be doing "Yang" style Taijiquan. I have seen the Taoist Tai Chi Society's mutilated "Yang" style. I have seen the modern 24 and 88 step Wushu "Yang" styles. I have seen the Cheng Man-ching "Yang" style and lots of in between "Yang" styles. Finally what I practise and several other people on this board - Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. There is usually less variation in Chen style teaching. You either learn "old" or "new" Chen. As to which one to go for? Go and look and see for yourself and make up your own mind. Both Chen and Traditional Yang are martial forms. Some of the other "Yang" styles are inventions by people "who don't do that nasty martial stuff!"
Sorry if all this sounds a bit cynical. (Perhaps Xue Sheng has finally gotten through to me!!!!!). But good luck and let us know how you get on.
Incidentally, he Old Chen Form (Laojia) has exactly the same sequence of moves as section 1 of Traditional Yang. They are of course performed in an entirely different way!!
Very best wishes
Alistair Sutherland
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
East Winds said:
OH SURE...blame me
My outlook gets better and yours gets worse, what the heck is going on!?!?
Most noticeable difference between Traditional Chen and traditional Yang.
Chen tends to be lower in stances and has more obvious fajing movements.
Sorry I have to use names here to make the point.
As Chen Zhenglei says “Yang style is too high”
As my Yang Sifu says “Chen is to low”
And if Traditional Yang you get long form, short fast form, 1 or 2 Da Dow forms, 1 or 2 straight sword forms, Push hands stationary 1 hand, stationary 2 hand, 3 step and 4 corner, freestyle, Tai Chi Qigong and I am probably missing something....oh yes and there is a Traditional Yang style staff form too.
There are also different forms of Yang as mentioned.
24 and 48 are competition forms that do actually have application but few who teach it know them.
Chen Manching, per Yang family is not Yang style, but many regard it as such. But it is higher and appears softer. And once again depending on who is teaching it varies. William CC Chen teaches it for fighting others do not.
Most traditional Yang taught today is from Yang Chengfu however there is a rare line from Yang Binhou (Yang Chengfu's Uncle) that few know. If you want to see this, the best example I have seen is Yang Jwing-ming.
There is also Tung or Dong style that is as far as I am concerned Yang plus. As far as the Yang family is concerned it is not Yang style it is Tung Style. Tung style adds a fast form possibly a fast Da Dow form and changes the postures slightly for what they feel adds power. I am not saying it is better just slightly different.
Chen (I will use English) Old form 1, Old form 2, New form 1, New form 2. At least 1 Da Dow form (fairly fast), a staff form and a spear form. Push hands I know of stationary 1 hand and 2 hand, moving and freestyle. Also some Chen forms in general tend to be faster than Yang.... Some, not all.
There tends to be less variation in Chen and I attribute that to the fact that due to the lower stances and in many cases it still emphasizes Martial arts. So it is not as popular as Yang.
But you also must take into account that Yang is a variation of Chen. Yang Luchan learned Chen and developed Yang from there.
I personally prefer Chen and I use to train some Chen. However I have trained Traditional Yang for 12 year. There are no Chen teachers anywhere near me and there was a good Yang style Sifu.
michaelvpardo
White Belt
Which style you choose to study depends largely on what you wish to get out of the study. I studied Chen Man Ching's version of the Yang style, which is supposed to be softer than the traditional form, for 3 years under my Sifu, Sidney Austin, before he succumbed to a brain tumor. I studied Chen style for a few years under my Sifu's teacher, Master Jou, Tsung Hwa, but discontined formal study just over 10 years ago. Both styles have similar postures and form, but the Chen style form incorporates sudden explosive movements and more vigorous changes in posture than the Yang. The Chen style is more obvious in its martial application and more rigorous a work out.
The Yang style also has its martial applications, but the practice of the form is more concealing, by intent, than the Chen and with an ultimate goal of formlessness. When combined with Chi Kung exercises and meditation forms, either style will develop control over internal energies, but the Yang style, by design, focuses more on the meditative aspect of the form, and in this allows more awareness of the internal mechanisms being trained. The Yang style, through long and devoted practice, may yield a control of muscular tissue to a very fine degree. I took up the study of Tai Chi originally for health reasons, trying to recover from a serious back injury. The postures in the Yang style, at a beginner level, are broad and open, performed in painfully slow transition from one form to the next. The slow movement, combined with practiced negative breathing, and the extended holding of postures, trains the muscles and nerve fibers in ways that go beyond the rapid practice of postures in other styles. The body learns the form even more than the mind does. My teacher, Sifu Sidney Austin, was a black belt in Kung Fu, but devoted the last part of his life almost entirely to Tai Chi. Though he did finally loose the battle against his cancer, his body continued to live a few days beyond the death of his brain, which says something of the effect of his training on the neuro-muscular system.
While I would like to go back to formal study of Tai Chi with an accomplished teacher, I would not consider studying Chen style or anything as hard as it, simply because my physical condition is not so robust and my experience is this: I found healing, growth and strength through the practice of the softer form, but managed to give myself at least one permanent injury just practicing the harder form. Master Jou was in his eighties when I was studying with him and his hope was to outlive his teacher. For a man of small frame, Master Jou was quite powerful and though I was twice his size, I would never consider tangling with such a man, yet for all his skill, he ended up loosing his life in a motor vehicle accident. You don't have to study difficult forms to become a dangerous person. Some people are driven by competition and the desire to be the best, but being the best at something is temporary at best. So, what do you want to gain from studying the art?
I quit the formal practice for spiritual reasons and a genuine concern for my soul, but wish to return to the practice for physical reasons and to honor the memory of my old instructor (my soul is kept by someone far stronger than me, so it seems safe to engage in the practice that once endangered it.) Many practitioners believe that Tai Chi is all about body mechanics and physical force, but don't be deceived, there is more to this world than that which can be seen by the eye or recorded by scientific means, and Tai Chi is a way to tap into the unseen. No man is a master unless he has mastered himself, and what man has ever genuinely known himself?
The Yang style also has its martial applications, but the practice of the form is more concealing, by intent, than the Chen and with an ultimate goal of formlessness. When combined with Chi Kung exercises and meditation forms, either style will develop control over internal energies, but the Yang style, by design, focuses more on the meditative aspect of the form, and in this allows more awareness of the internal mechanisms being trained. The Yang style, through long and devoted practice, may yield a control of muscular tissue to a very fine degree. I took up the study of Tai Chi originally for health reasons, trying to recover from a serious back injury. The postures in the Yang style, at a beginner level, are broad and open, performed in painfully slow transition from one form to the next. The slow movement, combined with practiced negative breathing, and the extended holding of postures, trains the muscles and nerve fibers in ways that go beyond the rapid practice of postures in other styles. The body learns the form even more than the mind does. My teacher, Sifu Sidney Austin, was a black belt in Kung Fu, but devoted the last part of his life almost entirely to Tai Chi. Though he did finally loose the battle against his cancer, his body continued to live a few days beyond the death of his brain, which says something of the effect of his training on the neuro-muscular system.
While I would like to go back to formal study of Tai Chi with an accomplished teacher, I would not consider studying Chen style or anything as hard as it, simply because my physical condition is not so robust and my experience is this: I found healing, growth and strength through the practice of the softer form, but managed to give myself at least one permanent injury just practicing the harder form. Master Jou was in his eighties when I was studying with him and his hope was to outlive his teacher. For a man of small frame, Master Jou was quite powerful and though I was twice his size, I would never consider tangling with such a man, yet for all his skill, he ended up loosing his life in a motor vehicle accident. You don't have to study difficult forms to become a dangerous person. Some people are driven by competition and the desire to be the best, but being the best at something is temporary at best. So, what do you want to gain from studying the art?
I quit the formal practice for spiritual reasons and a genuine concern for my soul, but wish to return to the practice for physical reasons and to honor the memory of my old instructor (my soul is kept by someone far stronger than me, so it seems safe to engage in the practice that once endangered it.) Many practitioners believe that Tai Chi is all about body mechanics and physical force, but don't be deceived, there is more to this world than that which can be seen by the eye or recorded by scientific means, and Tai Chi is a way to tap into the unseen. No man is a master unless he has mastered himself, and what man has ever genuinely known himself?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
There is also more to Traditional Yang style than the slow form and there are Qigong exercises that are trained in Yang style Taiji or at least as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh. Also Chen does have more obvious Fajing but do not underestimate Yang style it is still based in martial arts.
I am not disagreeing with your post but I felt that should be added
My teacher is also 1/2 my size and very skilled at Tai Chi and has on many occasion tossed me around quite easily with little effort as well.
I am not disagreeing with your post but I felt that should be added
My teacher is also 1/2 my size and very skilled at Tai Chi and has on many occasion tossed me around quite easily with little effort as well.
From what I have heard, and I can never tell how truthful that is, Yang is superior if you have something akin to good Kung Fu skills in something like Shaolin or other "fast/hard" martial art. Chen is supposed to be better if you do not have that kind of background.
My personal opinion, Yang can be done correctly with less strain on the body then Chen. If you are interested in martial arts aspects, are younger then middle aged, and have no disabilities (bad knee, slipped back disk, etc), Chen would probably be best. That advice given if both teachers are equal skill and proficiencies, but they most likely are not.
Both, with sufficent practice will get you the same results, in theory.
My personal opinion, Yang can be done correctly with less strain on the body then Chen. If you are interested in martial arts aspects, are younger then middle aged, and have no disabilities (bad knee, slipped back disk, etc), Chen would probably be best. That advice given if both teachers are equal skill and proficiencies, but they most likely are not.
Both, with sufficent practice will get you the same results, in theory.
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
dmax999,
I agree with almost everything you say. I'm not sure that previous experience in Shaoloin or some other fast/hard martial art would however be helpful before studying Yang. Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan trains taiji as a martial art, and my own experience of teaching tells me that people who come from the "hard" arts, have agreat deal of difficulty in softening up. I have a couple of Lau Gar students who come to my classes to try and soften their Lau Gar. Oh, and I wish I had a pound note for every student who comes to my classes and says "I used to practise Karate/Tai Kwon Do/ Kick Boxing (or whatever), but my knees are knackered now".
Everything else you say I totally agree with.
Very best wishes
I agree with almost everything you say. I'm not sure that previous experience in Shaoloin or some other fast/hard martial art would however be helpful before studying Yang. Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan trains taiji as a martial art, and my own experience of teaching tells me that people who come from the "hard" arts, have agreat deal of difficulty in softening up. I have a couple of Lau Gar students who come to my classes to try and soften their Lau Gar. Oh, and I wish I had a pound note for every student who comes to my classes and says "I used to practise Karate/Tai Kwon Do/ Kick Boxing (or whatever), but my knees are knackered now".
Everything else you say I totally agree with.
Very best wishes
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Actually there are some old internal stylists left that feel training a hard external style can be detrimental or contradictory to training internal and my Yang Sifu is one of them, so I will not tell him I started Sanda.
There are those VERY old Chinese sifus of internal styles that will not teach you if they find that you are training Shaolin or some other hard style at the same time.
marlon
Master Black Belt
Coming from a kempo background with a huge amount of material to learn. i am curious as to what and how do you practice for 12 + years in this art. What type of learening and instruction take place? I am asking to deepen my training and understanding of my art. Plus i am seriously considering learning at least one form of taiji. Considering my background in kempo, and i practice and teach reiki, would you suggest chen or yang. Also is the whole of the system contained in the form?
Respectfully,
marlon
Respectfully,
marlon
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
marlon,
As to why it takes so long to learn Taijiquan, there is no better starting place than this article by my teacher.
http://www.uswushuacademy.com/articles/Five Skill Levels.htm
Having learned the form movements of a taijiquan style is only a starting place. Then comes the real hard work. As to which style to study? Any of the major family styles that is taught properly as a martial art. How do you know if it is being taught properly? That's the million dollar question!! Unfortunately it is only experience that will tell you that:erg: Which takes us back to the start again!!!!!
Try it anyway and let us know what you find
Very best wishes
As to why it takes so long to learn Taijiquan, there is no better starting place than this article by my teacher.
http://www.uswushuacademy.com/articles/Five Skill Levels.htm
Having learned the form movements of a taijiquan style is only a starting place. Then comes the real hard work. As to which style to study? Any of the major family styles that is taught properly as a martial art. How do you know if it is being taught properly? That's the million dollar question!! Unfortunately it is only experience that will tell you that:erg: Which takes us back to the start again!!!!!
Try it anyway and let us know what you find
Very best wishes
I don't think I clarified the reason for that statement fully. Having the "fast/hard" background is not necessary for Yang style. One of the reasons I heard for the creation of Yang style is that when taught to soldiers they already had speed and strength but needed to learn more correct technique, hence the obvious differences in speed of many of the moves between Yang and Chen. So if that theory is correct (I have only heard someone else claim this) then Yang is actually tailored to those who already comprehend how to fight.
The point being that with a hard background, Yang style may let you learn to work on correct technique and "softening up" better then Chen.
But the simple truth is... of the two teachers, one will likely be a better teacher and you will be better off with a better teacher in either style then an inferior teacher in the other style. With a MA that takes over a decade to truly to begin to learn, do you want to waste years on a bad teacher just because it was the "style" you wanted? This point can't be stressed enough.
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
dmax99,
......you will be better off with a better teacher in either style then an inferior teacher in the other style. With a MA that takes over a decade to truly to begin to learn, do you want to waste years on a bad teacher just because it was the "style" you wanted? This point can't be stressed enough.[/quote]
Right on the money. I initially wasted a few years learning a worthless system. The trouble was, I didn't know it was worthless when I started!!!!!!
Very best wishes
......you will be better off with a better teacher in either style then an inferior teacher in the other style. With a MA that takes over a decade to truly to begin to learn, do you want to waste years on a bad teacher just because it was the "style" you wanted? This point can't be stressed enough.[/quote]
Right on the money. I initially wasted a few years learning a worthless system. The trouble was, I didn't know it was worthless when I started!!!!!!
Very best wishes
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
East Winds covered this rather well I think.
It takes time to learn the forms. Then it takes time to understand the forms. Then it takes time to understand the internal as it applies to the forms. And I haven't even touched on applications and push hands here yet.
There are many who will combine a hard style with Tai Chi in order to use it as a martial art and it can be done but it is wrong. They end up using hard style philosophy in Tai Chi for applications and it is no correct.
This does not mean that you cannot learn a hard style and train tai chi, it just means you have to be careful to understand how Tai Chi works and try and separate it from the harder style, particularly in application.
As to what style that depends on you. Chen tends toward lower stances with more obvious fajing movements and in places more obvious applications. Yang tends toward higher stances and is less obvious but equally as effective and to be honest to truly be able to use Tai Chi as a martial art takes awhile and it does not matter if you train Yang or Chen. The most important thing is to find a good teacher.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Never heard that one before. Yang style came directly from Chen after Yang Luchan learned Chen Tai Chi form the Chen family. The Yang family members did not, as far as I know learn any hard styles and the non-family higher level students did not learn any hard styles first. My Teachers Teacher did start in Hao style before going to Yang but they are both Tai Chi.
It was later changed by Yang Chengfu which is by far the predominant traditional Yang style you se today. The rest of the Yang you see to day tends to be competition forms not developed by the Yang family.
The older style of Yang, if you can find it, would likely come from Yang Benhou or possibly (but less likely) Yang Shaohou (Chengfu's older brother and Benhou nephew). The only place I have seen this is Yang Jwing Ming.
I agree completely
marlon
Master Black Belt
I loved the articles. Thank you i will start learning Yang style as it is available from one of the iheritors top students. Many things in the articles i was taught as part of my SK training from my first teacher but not many since has emphasized these points. I continue to teach and train them but with this...now i hope for new ands deeper understanding.
Thank you again
respectfully,
Marlon
This brings up an interesting question though...
When a "hard" style is truly mastered and done correctly is it really that much different from Tai Chi? As you get better you learn better techniques and that you don't need to muscle through every punch and kick. True masters of "hard" CMA styles seem to follow at least most of the principles of Tai Chi and are very relaxed while fighting.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
True experienced CMA hard stylists are rather impressive but it is more than being relaxed. It is using the mind to move the qi (if you will) to move the limbs; the idea is to strengthen the bones not the muscles (hence the cotton covered steel reference to a Tai Chi master). It is using the waist to direct this energy much like an axle. It is absorption of force it is redirecting force it is sensing your opponents force before they actually move (This is hard and I am not there but my sifu is) it is not flexing your muscles and it is not fighting force with force (wrestling is not what it is)
However it is not uncommon to have advanced hard stylist come close to the same ideas. And this is not taking away form hard styles at all. A well trained Shaolin Long fist person is amazing to watch and I can tell you form experience that a well trained Southern Mantis person is amazing to watch and absolutely amazing to watch if you happen to be lucky enough to spare one (it can be painful too). But it is not Tai Chi; many external styles train external qi where Tai Chi trains internal. With that being said it is also said that external goes to internal after years of training.
Coming form a hard style to Tai chi could help if for no other reason than you already have experience training a martial art. But sometime, not always, it is a hindrance. I have trained some very good people from hard styles in Tai Chi and it takes a long time for some to relax enough, particularly in things like push hands. A friend of mine is one of the best martial artists I know Karate and some Aikido but he is easy to defeat at close range but if I give him space it means trouble, kicks and punches start flying. However I use to train push hands with him and he had an understanding of force and he picked it up pretty fast, but he was still way to tense. I am sure though if we kept training he would have relaxed more and probably caught on quicker than some one with no experience in MA at all.
I personally found prior training in Jujitsu and TKD did help me in understanding of direction of force but it was a bit of a hindrance in the beginning because I used too much force,which generally get you thrown around in Tai Chi. But I am experiencing the reverse now. I find the Tai Chi training helps the Sanda particularly in the use of the waist to get to the various strikes. But to be honest the Xingyi helps more, it is a bit more (ok a lot more) aggressive than Tai Chi. As my sifu says Tai chi does not attack (not that it can't) but it is better at defense, in my opinion.
OK I have said a lot and I do not know if it is making any sense so I will stop here before I start sounding like a fortune cookie.
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