Cabales Eskrima Ranks...

[Shogun]

Does anyone here practice Cabales Serrada? I started it, then My teacher quit on me. what type of rank system does it use? I was told it would go grade 1 - grade 12, with no belt levels or in between ranks. And at each level, you learn a block and an attack. At level 12, you become an instructor.

any info is appreciated...

 

[mscroggins]

Does anyone here practice Cabales Serrada? I started it, then My teacher quit on me. what type of rank system does it use? I was told it would go grade 1 - grade 12, with no belt levels or in between ranks. And at each level, you learn a block and an attack. At level 12, you become an instructor.

any info is appreciated...

There are no ranks, belts, uniforms or other such silliness in Eskrima.

 

[OUMoose]

There are no ranks, belts, uniforms or other such silliness in Eskrima.

saying that is like saying Akido people don't kick. It's just not true.

I can't speak for Cabales Serrada specifically, but I know other FMA's have ranking systems. Would imagine it depends on the instructor and what he would like. Yes, most of the FMA's I have seen (which isn't many, i'll admit) don't have a "standard" uniform, but they have certain criteria for apparel appropriate for the setting.

Now, perhaps in YOUR system, they haven't any of that "silliness", and that is your business. I'm not trying to flame or anything. Just pointing out a blanket statement that's most likely false.

 

[mscroggins]

Ranking, belts, uniforms, certificates and the other trappings came from outside the FMA and were added on for various reasons, none of which aimed to improve the art.

And I think rankings, belts, uniforms, certificates, and the other trappings are silly. The Eskrima I have learned is carried in my body. It doesn't live in my belt, or a suit of clothes, or on a piece of paper. To know some Eskrima means to be able to use it, nothing more and nothing less.

Nor do I like the term system. To my ears this is just more silliness grafted onto Eskrima from the Japanese and Chinese traditions. It works perfectly there, but in Eskrima it makes no sense at all.

I like traditional Eskrima as described by Pedro Reyes in his essay The Fillipino Martial Tradition. He captures the spirit that makes Eskrima unique and effective. I don't like silly ideas that cut into the core of Eskrima.

My advice to you Shogun, is not to worry about rank, or your teacher leaving, or anything else. Just find someone who is good, and learn all you can from him. You are responsible for your own development. Don't get fooled by window dressing.

 

[OULobo]

Ranking, belts, uniforms, certificates and the other trappings came from outside the FMA and were added on for various reasons, none of which aimed to improve the art.

And I think rankings, belts, uniforms, certificates, and the other trappings are silly. The Eskrima I have learned is carried in my body. It doesn't live in my belt, or a suit of clothes, or on a piece of paper. To know some Eskrima means to be able to use it, nothing more and nothing less.

Nor do I like the term system. To my ears this is just more silliness grafted onto Eskrima from the Japanese and Chinese traditions. It works perfectly there, but in Eskrima it makes no sense at all.

I like traditional Eskrima as described by Pedro Reyes in his essay The Fillipino Martial Tradition. He captures the spirit that makes Eskrima unique and effective. I don't like silly ideas that cut into the core of Eskrima.

My advice to you Shogun, is not to worry about rank, or your teacher leaving, or anything else. Just find someone who is good, and learn all you can from him. You are responsible for your own development. Don't get fooled by window dressing.

Not that I don't agree with the sentiment of your post, but all aspects of all martial arts are grafted into those systems. No art is in a box and so no notion or technique is restricted to or from that art. Are you saying that arts based in traditional FMAs, founded in the Philippines and still having some of the inputs of other arts aren't FMAs? If that is true then what makes a filipino martial art filipino, because most, if not all, of the techniques in the FMAs were learned from someone and more than likely that someone wasn't a filipino of nth generation that learned it from this great-great-. . .-grandfather. Most techniques filtered into the Philippines from China, Japan, Indonesia, ect. The ideas of uniform, ranks, ect. are just the most recent item to be filtered into the Philippines and adopted into many FMAs.

 

[mscroggins]

Eskrima is open to new ideas and that is a strength that accounts for Eskrima's lasting effectiveness.

But, not all new ideas better Eskrima. And ideas like rankings, belts, uniforms, systems and certificates move Eskrima towards mediocrity and standardization, and away from the individual, improvised manner in which the art was traditionally taught.

These silly ideas all aim to answer the question: How good is Eskrimador X? This is a question that is traditionally answered by "playing" , in a lighthearted, or not so light hearted manner. And really, finding out what someone carries in their body and how effectively they put it into practice by "playing" is the only way to know. Trying to work around the question with belts and paper is a poor choice.

As far as individual techniques, I think they are worthless. The only thing that matters is braiding everything together into fluid movement. And the best way to learn is by "playing" with a live partner.

 

[OULobo]

But, not all new ideas better Eskrima. And ideas like rankings, belts, uniforms, systems and certificates move Eskrima towards mediocrity and standardization, and away from the individual, improvised manner in which the art was traditionally taught.

That is an opinion, not a fact. In my opinion rankings, belts, ect. aren't the best methods of teaching, but they serve the purposes they were meant for. They also add to the tapestry of FMAs and in so the creativity that is diametrically opposed to standardization.

These silly ideas all aim to answer the question: How good is Eskrimador X? This is a question that is traditionally answered by "playing" , in a lighthearted, or not so light hearted manner. And really, finding out what someone carries in their body and how effectively they put it into practice by "playing" is the only way to know. Trying to work around the question with belts and paper is a poor choice.

More unqualified opinions, stated as fact. Despite the implications of rankings, they are ment to help identify the more experienced practitioners not the "better" practitioners. Uniforms have nothing to do with how good or skillfull a person is. They are a matter of unity and tradition. Belts hold my pants up. I'm sure they could hold your pants up just as well.

As far as individual techniques, I think they are worthless. The only thing that matters is braiding everything together into fluid movement. And the best way to learn is by "playing" with a live partner.

The individual technique that you disregard will likely be the one that defeats you. Most fights only last seconds and don't usually require a "flow" because one technique is sufficient.

 

[mscroggins]

The only thing I offered up as fact is the lack rankings, systems, belts, and other such silliness in Eskrima. And in fact, they don't exist in Eskrima. A few people may have added them on for show, but they are just marketing gimmicks to attract students and squeeze some money out of them. They have nothing to do with Eskrima.

The rest is unadalterated opinion.

But, I do stand by my opinion that individual techniques have no place in Eskrima. Everything works together, like the notes that make up a chord, or everything fails together. Trying to cut movement up into individual techniques is counterproductive and leads away from the ultimate goal of fluid movement.

And when you say that uniforms are a sign of unity, I have to agree and say that I don't think unity has a place in Eskrima. Unity is for the Japanese arts. Eskrima has a history of producing highly individual artists. And to try to introduce unity where there should be individuality is a mistake - again, that is my opinion.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Arnis - Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts (page 131) -

Kung Fu students avidly seek genealogical charts of their styles because that is how they establish legitimacy. Conversely, the classical arnisador pays only scant attention to such charts. for the classical arnis master stands on his own abilities. He is not a master because he has received a certificate from a school, or because he has been appointed successor by a grandmaster. He is sui generis. (def sui generis - Latin, [literally of his (her) own kind], altogether unique).

That's a quote of a quote from the next thread over, that sums up what youre trying to say, mscroggins. I for one agree that Eskrima is all about the individual virtuosity of the eskrimador, never about his successorship or title or what organization he comes from. "Fighting Efficiency" vs. "Lineage"... Eskrima has evolved in two directions. You can't fight evolution, it's just the process. :asian:

 

[mscroggins]

That's a quote of a quote from the next thread over, that sums up what youre trying to say, mscroggins. I for one agree that Eskrima is all about the individual virtuosity of the eskrimador, never about his successorship or title or what organization he comes from. "Fighting Efficiency" vs. "Lineage"... Eskrima has evolved in two directions. You can't fight evolution, it's just the process. :asian:

Thats one of my favorite essays.

Maybe I can't fight evolution, but I don't have to like it...

 

[bart]

I agree with you mscroggins on some of your points about individuality within the FMA, but I part ways with both you and OULobo slightly on the concept of individual techniques vs fluidity. Basics when you get down to the nitty gritty are usually individual techniques. If you train speed and power in those individual techniques, you instantly can defend yourself against a lot of people. Fluidity has to do with stringing together those basics into a sequence of techniques that make sense when presented combined in that they are effective against an unwilling and skillful opponent or opponents. The end result is that if you have poor technique and great flow you will be able to get around a person but not so able to do damage. And if you have great technique but poor flow you will get jammed, blocked, and hit easily. If a technique is a word and flow a sentence, the real trick is being able to says something worthwhile. For that you need both.

As for the Cabales Serrada rank. When I trained in it, the only ranks were Guro and above. We received acknowledgement when we were done basically learning a "point" as they called it, which was 3 techniques to address an angle of attack. There were 12 total "points". But learning all twelve points didn't necessarily make you a "Master." In my experience the ranking system is only about teaching and who is authorized as having learned the material well enough that another teacher thinks that they can teach it in the spirit and at the level their GM would have approved of.

Now as far as uniforms in the FMA, that's a dicey point. Mostly they have some sort of uniform, be it a t-shirt or full shirt and pants outfit. Generally there is some sort of unifying clothing that people wear after a while of training. Generally it's not worn every time that you go to work out. Filipino culture is filled with examples of uniforms of one kind or another. Many martial cultists wore a signifying scarf. Many Katipuneros wore uniform headwear, jackets or complete uniforms. Many Filipinos in the PI and out of the PI were and are members of groups like the Masons, Elks, VFW, American Legion, etc. Eskrimadors for generations have been members of those organizations. To say that uniforms are completely outside the realm of FMA is demonstrative of ignorance of Filipino history and culture.

Generally, there is rank in the FMA. It may be belts like in Modern Arnis, Doce Pares, or Lapunti or it may be identified with a different objects as in DeRobio or Largusa/Villabrille Kali. But all styles have a rank of teacher, master, and grandmaster whether they acknowledge that with a definite title and object or just pay deference in a training session. Somebody is teaching the class and that person usually outranks everybody else. Often times belts are awarded without a test or warning.

 

[mscroggins]

I understand your point about the service clubs, and other affiliation groups, but I think there is a difference in intention and purpose between being identified with a service club or other affiliation group and wearing uniforms to class.

As far as rank, technique and systems go, I don't think they are worth much. For example, Cabales Serrada was Angel Cabales and his individual ideas about fighting with the short stick. But, to say that one can study Cabales and replicate his movements and techniques, I think is to deny your individual expression and is a diservice to Eskrima. Cabales only systemized his art in order to make a living by selling it, not to improve it.

Or take a look at Kali Ilustrisimo. Antonio Ilustrisimo didn't systemize his art, he learned it by "playing" eskrima and letting his natural movements come out of sparring. The "techniques" were added later by some of his students. If you read "The Secrets of Kali Ilustrisimo", you will find a short story about the difficulties they had trying to make sense of Ilustrisimo's movements. To shorten the story, they couldn't make sense of his movements until the had him on video and were able to assign names and create a system around his natural reactions. Which is well and good, but they are still his and not anyone elses.

As far as paying deference. I think that it is very important to let the people you study with and learn from know how much you appreciate the time they take to share their art with you. And you should respect their uniqueness enough not to imitate them.

 

[OULobo]

Sorry guys I was out of town at a MA sem and then a business sem, so I was unable to continue the conversation until now.

mscroggins - Describing ranks, belts, ect as silliness is inherently an opinion, despite what you then proceed to describe as fact. The debate as usual will degrade into a discussion of the semantics of what we call a uniform and rank. Even old styles of FMAs have what I would call uniform and rank in that they had, as Bart mentioned, a hierarchy within the style, however loose and non-traditional. There was always a master and his students, and some were respected more for their abilities and skills. By the same logic, uniforms, while not as strict or formal as modern ones, were indeed employed by the customary attire of the people who practice said arts. Almost all uniforms are due to function or tradition, and the same is true in the Philippines. I understand the outrage many feel about applying the customs and practices of other societies (like Japanese) to very unique and distinct arts (like the FMAs), but to describe these as silly and say that unifor and rank in general never existed in FMAs is unfounded and (in my OPINION) ludicrous.

I still hold that flow is not really a combat attribute, it's a training attribute. Realistic combat lasts seconds especially when dealing with edged weapons. This means two or three motions/strikes/techniques max. That leaves no real time to "flow". The styles of what seem to be the most effective FMA systems or martial systems in general are quick, uncomplicated and to the point.

For the uniforms and rank point: uniforms are not a Japanese characteristic. The idea of unity through appearance and dress is tracable to Ancient Greece and beyond. It is a military necessity that is practiced in almost every military including the Philippines. Due to the nature of most martial arts (warfare and the ability to cause harm), there is a close relationship between the military and the martial arts. As was stated before, most warfare evolved into militaries and so most martial arts have evolved into uniforms and ranks.

The question is how traditional do you really want to be? If you want to go back as far as possible you will find that the art is missing many and possibly all of the aspects that you once probly took as gospel, like terminology, technique, philosophy, ect. These were all borrowed from someone somewhere at sometime. Most of the people that are in the PI are not even of the tribes that were first recorded as being there. If you think that all technique and martial philosophy spontaneously erupted from the PIs or that they evolved in a bubble without borrowing or adopting anything, then you are misguided (I have some land you would love for sale). Why should the acceptance of rank and uniform be any different than the acceptance of steel over wood?

Consequently, imitation is generally seen as the most sincere form of flattery. Anyone who teaches is asking to be imitated on some level, be it for monetary value, effectivness or just ego.

 

[mscroggins]

This discussion about rank and so forth has moved far beyond the scope of the first post. I answered in response to a question about rank in Cabales Serrada.

To move this discussion down the road to the role of uniforms in the military and the orgin of rank and hierachy in a tribal society is to move outside of the scope of the thread.

And at this point there is no need for two threads on the same topic. See you on the goofiness thread.

 

[OUMoose]

If a technique is a word and flow a sentence, the real trick is being able to says something worthwhile. For that you need both.

I like that. *nod*

 

[Shogun]

Hi again.

So I think I figured this out.
CSE has three levels of certification, and no belts or anything.
The first level is Guro level 12. this means one has learned all the basics (12 angles, both attack and defense) and is a certified instructor. at this level, one also has learned the first levels of empty hand, Dumog, and disarms. The degree of proficiencey can very greatly within this rank. depending on how long one has practiced. the next level is Advanced instructor. following that is master instructor. only 16 people have ever held this rank. 17 certificates were initially signed, but the 16th man never finished his training. and wasnt awarded his cert.

instructor/Guro lvl. 12
Advanced instructor/advanced Guro
Master instructor/Maestro

Here is the technique for the 12 basic movements
http://serrada.net/index_files/techniques.htm

 

[James Kovacich]

I understand your point about the service clubs, and other affiliation groups, but I think there is a difference in intention and purpose between being identified with a service club or other affiliation group and wearing uniforms to class.

As far as rank, technique and systems go, I don't think they are worth much. For example, Cabales Serrada was Angel Cabales and his individual ideas about fighting with the short stick. But, to say that one can study Cabales and replicate his movements and techniques, I think is to deny your individual expression and is a diservice to Eskrima. Cabales only systemized his art in order to make a living by selling it, not to improve it.


.

That is so far from the truth. Angels creation of Serrada is nothing but an "improvement." Angel didn't ever make the money that his students made. He made his living working in the fields and teaching (his creation) Serrada because he loved it. What Angel did with Eskrima in the "USA" was never done before him. :uhyeah:

Angels instructor ranks which Suro Mike Inay helped him to establish were Basic Instructor, Advanced Instructor and Master Instructor.