But we train shooting against a static target.
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
Fully, fully agree. Static range shooting is important but it akin to book studying without ever doing any real application work.
Door/room clearing, shooting from different positions and with different weapons, and shoot/no shoot scenarios are vital practice.
We had a pistol team in my department that I tried out for every year. It was target shooting.(paid time off to practice and compete) I always finished in the bottom third of the department. But we also had a combat shooting course - running, climbing, obstacles, shoot/don't shoot screens, barricades, flashing lights. I always came in first, every single year.
You know why? Martial Arts training, plain and simple. Some of the guys in our department were runners and asked me why I thought they didn't do better. I told them because they run in a straight line at a comfortable pace for them. Advised them to break it up, do ins and outs (sprint twenty yards, jog twenty, repeat), climb over things, jump over hydrants, whatever.
When you train martial arts and fight as part of your training, you have to make split second decisions constantly, and when you screw up, you get punched in the face, smacked in the ribs, swept, choked out etc. Martial Arts helps everything you do. Always has, always will.
You know why? Martial Arts training, plain and simple. Some of the guys in our department were runners and asked me why I thought they didn't do better. I told them because they run in a straight line at a comfortable pace for them. Advised them to break it up, do ins and outs (sprint twenty yards, jog twenty, repeat), climb over things, jump over hydrants, whatever.
When you train martial arts and fight as part of your training, you have to make split second decisions constantly, and when you screw up, you get punched in the face, smacked in the ribs, swept, choked out etc. Martial Arts helps everything you do. Always has, always will.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
Title crtique: Define aim, you dont aim a shotgun for example, you point it. And i dislike how he uses gunfight to mean just CQB*. (say under 100 metres) Now with that aside.
The issue is, there is always the unknown factor and you dont actually know how you will act while getting shot at until you are. there is a reason why "trial by fire" as a term exists. its also why the military likes to keep people who have actually been shot at around and attached to people who havent, so if they end up freeing you still have someone there to unfreeze them/field correct the bad behaviour.
I dont disagree with the force on force thing, but i think other stress factors can be used to replace it if you cant do force on force for what ever reason. Say dyanmic shooting under some pressure. the shooting just has to be dyanmic. Maybe supplimented might be better than replaced here.
*I suppose this could have been shorterned to "define gunfight", which i obviously disagree with his usage of it.
The issue is, there is always the unknown factor and you dont actually know how you will act while getting shot at until you are. there is a reason why "trial by fire" as a term exists. its also why the military likes to keep people who have actually been shot at around and attached to people who havent, so if they end up freeing you still have someone there to unfreeze them/field correct the bad behaviour.
I dont disagree with the force on force thing, but i think other stress factors can be used to replace it if you cant do force on force for what ever reason. Say dyanmic shooting under some pressure. the shooting just has to be dyanmic. Maybe supplimented might be better than replaced here.
*I suppose this could have been shorterned to "define gunfight", which i obviously disagree with his usage of it.
lklawson
Grandmaster
This old argument again? In the firearms community, it's a little akin to the "grappling vs striking" debate. It's so done-to-death that most of us are tired of seeing it. Heck, this video alone is from 2018.
Shatteredzen
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My department did this thing called box drills with sim rounds where you taped out two ten foot squares connected to each other, sometimes there would be a barrel in the middle, sometimes not. The instructors would put both service weapons and a magazine either full or partially full somewhere in the respective squares and the rule was, you can't leave your assigned square until both people are out of ammo. Starting a few hundred feet away, you ran to the square on a whistle blow, then did your best to retrieve, load, make ready and fire your weapon while the same was being done by your opponent in the other square.
After seeing that many people freeze up or panic their first time in a gun fight or at least hesitate ay too much, this drill always struck me as the best kind of live training because you literally just had to cowboy up and get after it, no excuses, no hesitation, it drilled into you that speed and violence were going to be your best chance. Your biggest "resistance" is always going to be fear, the enemy gets a vote with their rounds but the best thing you can do for yourself is to act. Shoot, move, push through, get the other guy to break and run or flinch and hesitate.
After seeing that many people freeze up or panic their first time in a gun fight or at least hesitate ay too much, this drill always struck me as the best kind of live training because you literally just had to cowboy up and get after it, no excuses, no hesitation, it drilled into you that speed and violence were going to be your best chance. Your biggest "resistance" is always going to be fear, the enemy gets a vote with their rounds but the best thing you can do for yourself is to act. Shoot, move, push through, get the other guy to break and run or flinch and hesitate.
Do you actually shoot?
On a solid round, a shotgun is like any other smooth bore; and on a shot round, the spread isn't very large at realistic shotgun engagement ranges (at least not when discussing human-sized targets). For example: Federal Premium Maximum load with nine pellets of 00 buckshot has a spread of about 1-inch per yard of range.
Someone mentioned home defense. The longest line-of-sight in my house is maybe 10 yards. So yes... aim.
It may not be ADS (though it can be, rifle-style shooting is common with shotguns), but it's certainly aiming.
Long range engagement is a whole different kettle of fish when it comes to realistic training; and a "moving target" has become more about leading than anything else. I suggest a biatholon to get some "firing under stress" experience.
You undercut your own point by bringing up the military. Much of what they do in training is to get you to behave in a predictable way when you get shot at. Even having been shot at doesn't mean your response will be the same next time; and I'm not asserting that you are fundamentally wrong in your premise, but still.
I don't understand why airsoft isn't more popular.
I assert that even better would be "describe the situation we are worried about".
