Budo Taijutsu Articles on UofM Bujinkan Website!

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are some interesting articles on the University of Michigan Bujinkan Dojo website. Enjoy.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mza/ninpo.html

I particularly like the Togakure Ryu Ninpo Enbu!

 

[Monadnock]

You know, I came across the same site just the other day.

This struck me as odd. Did Takamatsu not have a teacher of Togakure Ryu, or am I missing more information?

Togakure Ryu (Nin) 戸隠流 - 1969 Edition
After the Taisho (Era), Takamatsu Toshitsugu utilized the fad of ninjutsu reading materials and organized a new genealogy. It is said that the densho was according to Toda Shinryuken�s kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 30 at the age of 73 years. Takamatsu was born 4 years later. If you take this genealogy, a person named Iin introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. However, because it is referenced from various transmittances such as oral material and kuden, the genealogy is embellished; the people that are in fact included in the references also record their era as older than actuality. And so it is painstaking work (to find accurate information).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You know, I came across the same site just the other day.

This struck me as odd. Did Takamatsu not have a teacher of Togakure Ryu, or am I missing more information?

Monadnock there are better people than I that could answer your question. (aka Don Roley, Ben Cole) However I would venture to say that your conjecture is not correct.

 

[Monadnock]

Hah - no problem. I am sure someone will jump on and clear things up.

Thanks!
Mike

 

[bencole]

This struck me as odd. Did Takamatsu not have a teacher of Togakure Ryu, or am I missing more information?

Yes, you are missing something. Didn't you read the paragraph directly preceding the paragraph you cited?!?

For your reference, it says,

"5. Bujinkan Ryu Ha Listings in the "Bugei Ryu Ha Daijiten"
The following are excerpts from various editions of the Bugei Ryu Ha Daijiten ("Great Dictionary of Bugei Schools") - which some people believe to be the foremost and most exhaustive work on Japanese koryu bujutsu ever published. However, the information it contains should never be taken as 100% correct, especially when it comes to describing the Bujinkan ryu ha. The entries change from edition to edition. Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were "friends" - and "confidence between friends" justifies Watatani's portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as "fabrications" (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only. - MZA"


Please note the VAST differences between the two versions of the book. If the assertions made in the original publication were as irrefutable as implied by the writing, then those claims certainly would not have changed so dramatically in the revised version. Just some food for thought, in addition to Michael's caveats from the preceding paragraph.

-ben

 

[bencole]

I also see that Michael has a translation of an article that was published in Japan that includes quotations from me. Boy, that was an eternity ago!

This is a very good example of "taking one for the team," even when one does not desire to do so.

This reporter had shown up at Ayase, wanting to write a story about the numerous foreigners training in this "ancient Japanese art." Soke asked me to "host" the reporter and answer his questions. The interview went as expected and then at the end, the reporter decides to press for a little more juice to solidify his article. He asked, "Is there any other way that Ninpo has helped you in terms of personal development?"

Well, friends, it certainly would not have come across well (especially in Japanese culture) if I had responded with, "Nope. I just enjoy punching people." LOL!

Instead, I gave him an answer that would conform with his expectations, and provide a nice "ending" to his article. I was a "good ambassador," plain and simple.

I raise this issue because when looking at any quotations coming out of Japan (and yes, even those by foreigners in "representative situations" such as this interview), it is vital that one considers the circumstances of the questioning/writing.

I address this issue in more detail in the most recent issue of Bujinmag.com, for those of you who haven't read it.

-ben

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I also see that Michael has a translation of an article that was published in Japan that includes quotations from me. Boy, that was an eternity ago!

This is a very good example of "taking one for the team," even when one does not desire to do so.

This reporter had shown up at Ayase, wanting to write a story about the numerous foreigners training in this "ancient Japanese art." Soke asked me to "host" the reporter and answer his questions. The interview went as expected and then at the end, the reporter decides to press for a little more juice to solidify his article. He asked, "Is there any other way that Ninpo has helped you in terms of personal development?"

Well, friends, it certainly would not have come across well (especially in Japanese culture) if I had responded with, "Nope. I just enjoy punching people." LOL!

Instead, I gave him an answer that would conform with his expectations, and provide a nice "ending" to his article. I was a "good ambassador," plain and simple.

I raise this issue because when looking at any quotations coming out of Japan (and yes, even those by foreigners in "representative situations" such as this interview), it is vital that one considers the circumstances of the questioning/writing.

I address this issue in more detail in the most recent issue of Bujinmag.com, for those of you who haven't read it.

-ben

Hey Ben your latest article on Bujin Magazine was very good. Especially when you consider how different people from different parts of the world communicate. Makes for some very interesting situations.

 

[Monadnock]

Yes, you are missing something. Didn't you read the paragraph directly preceding the paragraph you cited?!?

For your reference, it says,

"5. Bujinkan Ryu Ha Listings in the "Bugei Ryu Ha Daijiten"
The following are excerpts from various editions of the Bugei Ryu Ha Daijiten ("Great Dictionary of Bugei Schools") - which some people believe to be the foremost and most exhaustive work on Japanese koryu bujutsu ever published. However, the information it contains should never be taken as 100% correct, especially when it comes to describing the Bujinkan ryu ha. The entries change from edition to edition. Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were "friends" - and "confidence between friends" justifies Watatani's portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as "fabrications" (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only. - MZA"


Please note the VAST differences between the two versions of the book. If the assertions made in the original publication were as irrefutable as implied by the writing, then those claims certainly would not have changed so dramatically in the revised version. Just some food for thought, in addition to Michael's caveats from the preceding paragraph.

-ben

Hi Ben,

Yes, I did read that, but to summarize, it only said that Watatani did not believe the ryuha to be legitimate and portrayed them as such. Now, real, legitmate, fabricated or not, my question was concerned with their transmission only, and the gap in dates between Toda Shinryuken's passing and the birth of Takamatsu Sensei.

Are you saying that the portrayal of the ryuha also included a lie about these dates? I'm not sure when the last days of the Tokugawa shugunate were, or where Meiji 40/41 fall on today's calendar but if that clears up the time gap I guess it answers my question -- sorta.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Don Roley]

Now, real, legitmate, fabricated or not, my question was concerned with their transmission only, and the gap in dates between Toda Shinryuken's passing and the birth of Takamatsu Sensei.

Watatani was always updating his work and eliminating errors.

I have his last version before he died and go by it. The later version says he was born in Meiji 41. Take it for what you will as to which version is correct. There has been some talk about that before. Meiji 41 would have been 1909 I believe.

As an aside, there is a somewhat interesting letter from Watatani to Hatsumi in an early newsletter called "Bujin". It is now out of print. I will try to dig it up. All I can say with certainty is that I remember the tone Watatani takes seems very apologetic without dealing specifically why he is taking the tone.

 

[Monadnock]

OK, thanks.

Mike

 

[paolo_italy]

As an aside, there is a somewhat interesting letter from Watatani to Hatsumi in an early newsletter called "Bujin". It is now out of print. I will try to dig it up. All I can say with certainty is that I remember the tone Watatani takes seems very apologetic without dealing specifically why he is taking the tone.

then, save your time: you have to search it in Sanmyaku

bye,

paolo