Anti-takedown techniques using internal energy

windwalker099

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What make his opponent not be able to release his grip?


Some observations 🤔

Look closely at what the teacher is doing with his own arm, relative to the action of the student griping it...
By twisting his arm as he moves it creates a continuous spiral towards the inside, acting within the students center of gravity by changing his body position. In taiji we would call this "sticking" allowing him to "join" and "follow" the movement. The first part a given "attaching" done by asking the student to grip his arm,,,

Any one not understanding this trying to escape directly would have a hard time, depending on the ability of the teacher to sense adjust....and control their center... Not so easy, something that takes a while "for those interested" in this method

It's a "demo" by nature limited in action and intent

Listen to what this teacher explains as "freezing"
Whether one feels it works or not "watching it"

Those on the receiving end are reacting to what they feel.


Lots of work developing the proprioception necessary to use this within ones own body, extending this sense into another's body.
.
 
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JowGaWolf

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What make his opponent not be able to release his grip?

- I hold on your arm.
- You turn your arm and put pressure on my grip.
- I'm still stupid enough not to release my grip.

In real world, this will never happen.
When I see things like this, I think of scenarios where I may be less willing to let go and each time I come up with sword and knife. If I'm grabbing the knife hand of my attacker then I can control the arm to prevent from being stabbed or cut. I know that as soon as I let go of that wrist that I'm going to get stabbed.
 

tkdroamer

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When I see things like this, I think of scenarios where I may be less willing to let go and each time I come up with sword and knife. If I'm grabbing the knife hand of my attacker then I can control the arm to prevent from being stabbed or cut. I know that as soon as I let go of that wrist that I'm going to get stabbed.
We specifically practiced control techniques, which were basically working on grip strength and how to grab the joint (usually wrist) in certain scenarios. No pressure point stuff. It was purely for control of the weapon.
 

O'Malley

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Hard to say, my training based on the methods of my teacher in Beijing...taiji,
Master Zhang Yong liang 張永良師傅. 1920–2020

He and his group used some of the members there who had training in "Shuai jiao" Chinese wrestling, or of some bagua practitioners who used to come and practice with his group.

They would try different holds and take downs....He using his methods would "demo" how to neutralize them...



some of the practice during 2002
In his 80s at the time of the demo, the clip not a formal demo nor any type of competition. having said that, those there are actively trying to see if they can use their technique on the master
it was funny 😂

,
A little off topic,,our practice focused primarily on the use of intent, developing it, actively using it as part of an overall strategy based method

That's a great demo, your master was skilled! I've seen high-level daito ryu and taiji people pull off similar demos. The end is fun to watch as you can see the guy in beige/yellow switch from pushing to pulling to twisting and none of those things affect the teacher.

Yes, intent is also a big focus in some lines of aikido/daito ryu (and I'm working on it, that's the most interesting part in my opinion!). Koichi Tohei also focused on intent:


I asked about 6 directions because it's also a concept found in daito ryu and aikido (it's called "roppo"). One should stand in 6D before, during and after each technique. The founder of aikido also defined "aiki" as the manifestation of yin and yang inside the body, like in Chinese internal arts.

Often what looks" cool" 🤔

is very focused on showing or demoing a specific technique or concept.
In reality, or the term most often used "resisting opponent" 😐
of equal or greater skill

The ability to apply it very much dependent on other skill factors not used in the "demo".

I agree. This skill is different from fighting skills, although it can help. Here's a good illustration of applications by a taiji-based BJJ coach (the best part is around 4:00):


What make his opponent not be able to release his grip?

- I hold on your arm.
- You turn your arm and put pressure on my grip.
- I'm still stupid enough not to release my grip.

In real world, this will never happen.

There's no pressure on the grip (if there is, I'm doing it wrong). There's a spiral rotation that affects your body through the contact point (your grip) and 1) takes away your balance and 2) breaks down your structure.

If this happens and I move into your space, 1) you have to rely on me for balance and 2) you're also trying to prevent me from invading. If you let go, you fall or you let me enter your space. This is very visible at around 0:48 in the video below:


windwalker099 understands it (better than I do) so I'll refer to his answer. What's fascinating is that, although his background is in Chinese arts and mine in aikido and daito ryu (so Japanese), it is clear that we have similar views on some fundamental concepts. And it's not a given: those fundamental concepts are so easy to get wrong! I've met a lot of people in Japanese and Chinese martial arts who cannot do even the most basic version of the things we've seen in these videos (and I'm not that good myself because true internal stuff is still new to me).


Some observations 🤔

Look closely at what the teacher is doing with his own arm, relative to the action of the student griping it...
By twisting his arm as he moves it creates a continuous spiral towards the inside, acting within the students center of gravity by changing his body position. In taiji we would call this "sticking" allowing him to "join" and "follow" the movement. The first part a given "attaching" done by asking the student to grip his arm,,,

Any one not understanding this trying to escape directly would have a hard time, depending on the ability of the teacher to sense adjust....and control their center... Not so easy, something that takes a while "for those interested" in this method

It's a "demo" by nature limited in action and intent

Listen to what this teacher explains as "freezing"
Whether one feels it works or not "watching it"

Those on the receiving end are reacting to what they feel.


Lots of work developing the proprioception necessary to use this within ones own body, extending this sense into another's body.
.
 

windwalker099

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Yes, intent is also a big focus in some lines of aikido/daito ryu (and I'm working on it, that's the most interesting part in my opinion!). Koichi Tohei also focused on intent:

Interesting

As you may know Aikido is kind of separated into distinct lines with very different ideas about the founders work.
In some aspects similar to the world of taiji 🙂


A good friend of mine was teaching and working with Aikido from the Tohei, branch in Hawaii back in the 80s,,
He the one who suggested I start training in taiji to supplement and deepen my understanding of CMA at the time....

Later finding something I felt was unique would be something that i would continue through different teachers, method/styles until finding my last teacher quite by accident...

In meeting him and his group, understanding that I found what I was looking for..

Dropping everything else to learn and practice his method..... Physically and mentally found it to be very challenging having to drop, rewire a lot of body mind reactions.
 
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windwalker099

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Interesting clip he mentions "skin"

We use 3 levels of contact

skin
hair
air

It's not based on dealing with what we refer to as the frame "bone" using direct leverage...


What he refers to as elastic body, one part included in our
3 levels of training, understood as working with the fascia among other things

water
wind
dragon wind

the theory specifically, dealing from a Chinese viewpoint of how the body mind interaction works, based on
intent "yi" ,power qi, "shen" spirit
 
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drop bear

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When I see things like this, I think of scenarios where I may be less willing to let go and each time I come up with sword and knife. If I'm grabbing the knife hand of my attacker then I can control the arm to prevent from being stabbed or cut. I know that as soon as I let go of that wrist that I'm going to get stabbed.

Hanging on has its own downside in that you then also work let your arm be moved like that.
 

O'Malley

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It's not based on dealing with what we refer to as the frame "bone" using direct leverage...
Yes, although in application you can easily revert to that. But you meed more strength.

What he refers to as elastic body, one part included in our
3 levels of training, understood as working with the fascia among other things

water
wind
dragon wind

the theory specifically, dealing from a Chinese viewpoint of how the body mind interaction works, based on
intent "yi" ,power qi, "shen" spirit
Yes, fascia training and intent training are crucial in some lines of daito ryu aikijujutsu and aikido, and personally I think that it's the most interesting part of martial arts training. And I don't know much about "shen" or spiritual aspects but, as I understand it, Morihei Ueshiba (aikido's founder) practiced his art as a form of mind-body-spirit purification. And the more he did it, the stronger his mind-body connection became.
 

mograph

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And I don't know much about "shen" or spiritual aspects ...
A fellow practitioner (from HK) explained shen to me in a more practical way, compared to what I've read. It's basically the aggregate result of all the good practices. In other words, good shen is "spirit" in the sense of being spirited, full of energy, happy, focused, yet relaxed.

It's the summary of good health. High-functioning, vivacious, vibrant, dynamic.
This is the shen we seek: not an escape from our bodies, but high-functioning within them.

Make sense?
 

windwalker099

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Make sense?
Not really,,,,but thats ok....🙂

Before speaking on this it might be helpful to look at some of the theory...
This is one theory
孙瑜:内家训练须从筋膜入手
2022-11-11 新民网

孙瑜/文
孙祿堂先师在《拳意述真》中提到郭云深说的明劲暗劲化劲三种练法与易筋易骨洗髓三步功夫,实际上内家训练是从筋膜入手,训练撑筋拔骨,使筋膜重新变得有序化,恢复先天弹性活力和传导气的高频能量。而沒经内家训练的人,筋膜大多都比较僵硬,反应迟钝。

Master Sun Lutang mentioned in Guo Yunshen's "The Truth of Boxing" that the three training methods of bright strength, dark strength and strength transformation and the three-step kung fu of changing tendons, bones and washing marrow, in fact, internal training starts from the fascia, training supports The tendons and bones are pulled out, the fascia becomes orderly again, and the innate elastic vitality and high-frequency energy of conducting Qi are restored.

For those who have not been trained by internal training, most of the fascia is relatively stiff and unresponsive.


训练暗劲重点就是通过九要,四正八筋,全身气、血、膜合为一体,筋膜腾起,周身练成"一根筋”练成像弓弦一样震弹的大筋,如一张大网松紧变化,拧裹崩弹成万向球。孙祿堂先生说的"骨如铜球,筋如钢丝球,内气如气球",外形上看不使

The key point of training Anjin is to pass the nine essentials, four straightening and eight tendons, the whole body's qi, blood, and membranes are integrated, the fascia rises, and the whole body becomes "one tendon" and the big tendons vibrate like a bowstring, like a big net changing in tension , twisted and collapsed into a universal ball.

Mr. Sun Lutang said, "Bones are like copper balls, tendons are like steel wool balls, and internal air is like balloons."
 
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windwalker099

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continued

拙力,能承力化力,触碰其身,如同打足了气的橡皮轮胎,弹射而出,外柔内刚,这就是内家髙手身怀绝技功夫之一(即老牛筋),是最优化的发力模式。
本人从事中医及运动医学,在人体解剖工作实践中证实筋膜主要成分是胶原蛋白纤维强弹力物质,与中医经络十二经筋密切相关,从动力学主要是深筋膜(大筋)联通骨骼、体液,加强中枢神经系统传导功能。这是内家拳功夫脱胎换骨后天返先天,需要特别重视强化的一关。

Clumsy strength, capable of bearing force and transforming force, touches the body, like a fully inflated rubber tire, ejected, soft on the outside and strong on the inside, this is one of the special skills of the inner master (that is, the old beef tendon) , which is the optimal power generation mode.

I am engaged in traditional Chinese medicine and sports medicine. In the practice of human anatomy, it has been confirmed that the main component of fascia is collagen fiber and strong elastic substance, which is closely related to the twelve meridian tendons of traditional Chinese medicine. Body fluid, strengthen the conduction function of the central nervous system.

This is a hurdle in which Neijiaquan Kungfu is reborn and returned to nature, and special attention needs to be paid to strengthening it.

辨别真假功夫,很简单,实践是唯一标准,只有功夫真正上身,通过真实的较量,才能辨别真伪。所以练习技击者当先从改造筋骨入手,易筋易骨洗髓是技击的基本功之一,如这个还没练出来,请你就不要从事技击,否则人体如同玻璃一样,不堪一击。护命之艺与竞赛套路取向完全不同,传统武术真正的功夫虽也练套路,但此套路非彼套路,性质不同,体用二全才是武术真正不凡之成就。

It is very simple to distinguish true and false kung fu. Practice is the only criterion. Only when kung fu is mastered and through real contests can the true and false be distinguished. Therefore, practitioners of martial arts should first start with the transformation of muscles and bones.

Yixing tendons, bone washing and marrow washing are one of the basic skills of martial arts. If you have not practiced this, please do not engage in martial arts, otherwise the human body is as vulnerable as glass.

The art of life protection is completely different from the competition routines.

Although the real kung fu of traditional martial arts also practice routines, this routine is not the same routine, and its nature is different. The combination of body and function is the truly extraordinary achievement of martial arts.


作者简介:
孙瑜现任上海精武体育总会会太极拳专业委员会主任。瑞士长寿研究俱乐部健康养生顾问。中国武术六段。孙禄堂内家拳第三代传人、吴式太极拳第五代传人、陈式太极拳第十二代传人。

About the Author:
Sun Yu is currently the director of the Taijiquan Professional Committee of the Shanghai Jingwu Sports Federation. Health and wellness consultant of the Swiss Longevity Research Club. Sixth paragraph of Chinese martial arts. Sun Lutang is the third-generation descendant of Neijiaquan, the fifth-generation descendant of Wu-style


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