Anti-takedown techniques using internal energy

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vic

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Most internal guys like to test their internal skill against push. Very few internal guys test their internal skill against pull.

The concern is when A pulls B, if A can't pull B into him, the counter force of A's pulling will pull A into B. In other words, if a pull can establish a clinch, how to deal with a clinch will be the issue.

Will you call this guy using "internal energy"?

View attachment 28439

I would say the "internal" way to counter a pull is not resist but step into it, to attain an advatageous position or get the opponent off balance. He seems to be doing that in the animation.

This video has several bagua counters to pulls at 4:25 and others. He's also stepping into the pull.

 

drop bear

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Ok. There are constant micro adjustments you can make that either make you hard to move or hard to gain to gain momentum from. So you can either be very hard to push or give them nothing to push against m.

So basically if you push and I structure myself properly you will have a hard time. But if you change direction then theoretically I tip over.

But if I adjust that structure as you adjust the attack then you will have a hard time adjusting to that as well.

Get it right and I will appear to be made out of rock. But it is a product of good timing and spacial awareness and not heavy breathing or navel gazing.

 

O'Malley

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Ok. There are constant micro adjustments you can make that either make you hard to move or hard to gain to gain momentum from. So you can either be very hard to push or give them nothing to push against m.

So basically if you push and I structure myself properly you will have a hard time. But if you change direction then theoretically I tip over.

But if I adjust that structure as you adjust the attack then you will have a hard time adjusting to that as well.

Get it right and I will appear to be made out of rock. But it is a product of good timing and spacial awareness and not heavy breathing or navel gazing.

You're describing a mix of posting and repositioning. It can work really well but it's different from what I'm talking about. In my line of daito ryu, for example, we condition the body to handle forces in all directions at the same time, regardless of whether the opponent is pushing or pulling.

This guy's based in tai chi and also competes quite successfully in BJJ:


This demonstration is also quite clear:


Obviously it does not replace positioning or tactics (e.g. sprawling, crossface, etc.), it's just a different set of skills.
 

drop bear

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You're describing a mix of posting and repositioning. It can work really well but it's different from what I'm talking about. In my line of daito ryu, for example, we condition the body to handle forces in all directions at the same time, regardless of whether the opponent is pushing or pulling.

This guy's based in tai chi and also competes quite successfully in BJJ:


This demonstration is also quite clear:


Obviously it does not replace positioning or tactics (e.g. sprawling, crossface, etc.), it's just a different set of skills.

The top video is basic grappling concepts.

So with your guy doing body alignment to prevent the snap down. Thai guys use the same concept in the clinch.


So he doesn't explain it. But if you look you can see him change level at the hips to realign his structure.

This might be a better example. So generally it isn't very obvious in wrestling because the guy breaking structure is about as good as the guy keeping structure.

Keep an eye on the big dude in the blue rashie and the guy with the ear muffs.
 
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O'Malley

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Keeping alignment may be a basic grappling concept but internal arts have a specific methodology (solo + partner training) to condition fascia so that it maintains alignment, among other effects. And this fascial conditioning cannot be obtained by conventional movement training
 

drop bear

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Keeping alignment may be a basic grappling concept but internal arts have a specific methodology (solo + partner training) to condition fascia so that it maintains alignment, among other effects. And this fascial conditioning cannot be obtained by conventional movement training

Yet internal artists are not the best grapplers.
 

O'Malley

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There's more to grappling than your ability to keep alignment and internal arts suffer from suboptimal tactics and live training, in addition to having a much smaller pool of competitors in the first place. Plus, the training is hard and you need proper hands on instruction, which is quite rare.

However, Zhang Weili does fascia conditioning and it looks like it works for her.
 

Oily Dragon

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Yet internal artists are not the best grapplers.
I think this is only superficially true and the more you learn about the Internal MA school histories, the easier it is to understand.

All "Grapplers" try to master internal school (Neijia) concepts in a practical sense, for combat but just outside the Daoist framework. Because Neijia exercises are essentially Daoyin based, they function well as any modern physical training. And from a practical POV, that means a focus on th core.

Tai chi, Bagua, and Xingyi all teach basic wrestling principles, but the number of people today who use it for combat are outnumbered by people who do it for fitness by a factor of lots.
 

Oily Dragon

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Keeping alignment may be a basic grappling concept but internal arts have a specific methodology (solo + partner training) to condition fascia so that it maintains alignment, among other effects. And this fascial conditioning cannot be obtained by conventional movement training
Why not?

Are you telling me my Shaolin waigong isn't also conditioning my fascia??????

Oh no. I've been doing everything wrong again.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Tai chi, Bagua, and Xingyi all teach basic wrestling principles, but the number of people today who use it for combat are outnumbered by people who do it for fitness by a factor of lots.
In other words, those who practice Taiji, XingYi, Bagua have no interest in combat.

A: The Taoist art will transform you into a new human being, if practised with depth in mind.
B: But I'm only interesting in how to land my fist on my opponent's face.

When A and B talk, they are just like a chicken talks to a duck.
 

Oily Dragon

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In other words, those who practice Taiji, XingYi, Bagua have no interest in combat.

A: The Taoist art will transform you into a new human being, if practised with depth in mind.
B: But I'm only interesting in how to land my fist on my opponent's face.

When A and B talk, they are just like a chicken talks to a duck.
Another way of saying, it's important to divine out martial technique building from life technique.

For some people, they'll ovelap. For others not so much.

And in between a lot who will try to convince you for a dollar.

My Tai Chi training was/is very physical with lots of resistance. My Bagua training was largely theoretical. Hung Kuen external portion was brutal, the internal portion is enlightening.

For Sanshou purposes, it all works in somewhere, but I'm getting too old for that stuff, now, so Neigong is where I'm at. And I find it funny that Daoist schools often consider Shaolinquan "external," even though Shoalin Si studied the entire Daoist playbook and then some.
 

drop bear

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There's more to grappling than your ability to keep alignment and internal arts suffer from suboptimal tactics and live training, in addition to having a much smaller pool of competitors in the first place. Plus, the training is hard and you need proper hands on instruction, which is quite rare.

However, Zhang Weili does fascia conditioning and it looks like it works for her.

And you mean this sort of stuff?

 

drop bear

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I think this is only superficially true and the more you learn about the Internal MA school histories, the easier it is to understand.

All "Grapplers" try to master internal school (Neijia) concepts in a practical sense, for combat but just outside the Daoist framework. Because Neijia exercises are essentially Daoyin based, they function well as any modern physical training. And from a practical POV, that means a focus on th core.

Tai chi, Bagua, and Xingyi all teach basic wrestling principles, but the number of people today who use it for combat are outnumbered by people who do it for fitness by a factor of lots.

Yeah. But we are discussing that it is a unique method of training that provides a unique skill for wrestlers. So you can't get this from a knees over toes program or skipping or whatever else good wrestlers do that makes them able to structure their bodies in a way that makes them hard to manipulate.

And for that to be true. It needs to be demonstrated in some way.

Not just the old trope where all the success is over here where nobody can see it.
 

Oily Dragon

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Yeah. But we are discussing that it is a unique method of training that provides a unique skill for wrestlers. So you can't get this from a knees over toes program or skipping or whatever else good wrestlers do that makes them able to structure their bodies in a way that makes them hard to manipulate.

And for that to be true. It needs to be demonstrated in some way.

Not just the old trope where all the success is over here where nobody can see it.
It doesn't provide anything unique. It's just body grappling from a different point of view, and each of the Neijia schools tackled it a little different. But one huge difference between internal and external schools are the hand postures. External schools have many, internal schools don't (because of the core/body focus).

But that's part of the of problem with arts like Tai Chi or Wing Chun. The people who take them up are so focused on their uniqueness, they forget the important of physical mastery, which is a no brainer thing in wrestling. As in Duh, man, if chi is real, you should be a wrestling god.

I'll grant you this, the Neijia schools are far outweighed by the "external" schools in full contact fighting competion. But as I keep saying some of those schools are actually internal+external because their founders realized more than a century ago, I'd like some more please, and combined techniques from multiple schools.
 
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O'Malley

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Why not?

Are you telling me my Shaolin waigong isn't also conditioning my fascia??????

Oh no. I've been doing everything wrong again.
Yeah. But we are discussing that it is a unique method of training that provides a unique skill for wrestlers. So you can't get this from a knees over toes program or skipping or whatever else good wrestlers do that makes them able to structure their bodies in a way that makes them hard to manipulate.

And for that to be true. It needs to be demonstrated in some way.

Not just the old trope where all the success is over here where nobody can see it.
It's easy to check. Take a wrestler/shaolin/whatever, have him do basic internals push tests (such as the ones in the Aunkai video). If it works, then congrats that person's previous training already developed that skill. If not, get the person to train internals, redo the test and see if he has developed the skill.
 

drop bear

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It's easy to check. Take a wrestler/shaolin/whatever, have him do basic internals push tests (such as the ones in the Aunkai video). If it works, then congrats that person's previous training already developed that skill. If not, get the person to train internals, redo the test and see if he has developed the skill.

And that is this test?
 

Oily Dragon

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This is a much better test, and it actually shows what Neigong is supposed to look like. Who needs a random Test Your Might moment, when you can learn TCC and other internal arts properly and simply walk into a mat and throw down.

Sadly these types of tournaments don't get as much fanfare as they should, and of course a lot of alleged Tai Chi Gurus out there love to say this isn't really what TCC is about ("too external" etc)

If you love wrestling like I do, yes it is. And these kids feel like Immortals themselves afterward. You can feel the vibe, you can see how Qi works, and why mastering the body's alignment and center of mass (which happens to lie along the axis formed by the 3 Dantians) is so important to grappling skills.

This is my standard for any Tai Chi dude who claims to have skill, and boy oh boy, so many TCC simply would not qualify without amping up their game.

 
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Oily Dragon

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One of the best things about fraternizing with many excellent martial artists is I get sent really cool memes that actually make sense, like this simple explanation of "internal".

Now, did CMC actually say this somewhere?

Is the Yang Family TCC Mafia going to show up? Self quarantining, so I've got some time on my hands.

83970.jpeg
 

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