A Lot of One System vs A Little of Many

[isshinryuronin]

I've seen several posts from those who, for whatever reason, seem to have bounced from style to style - a year here, a couple there, another year or five somewhere else, and so on. Then, there are those who have stayed with one style for many years. And there are those who've followed a combination of these MA paths. No doubt there will be various opinions on the value of each of these MA experiences and there will be some validity to most of them.

I think the basic question involves depth verses breadth, horizontal verses vertical development. What are the pros and cons of these approaches and is there an ideal approach or balance?

 

[Simfers]

My approach has always been to stay at a particular school or in a particular style as long as I enjoy it. When I stop enjoying it, I move on.

Like right now, I'm training BJJ in a great school with wonderful people, have done for a bit over a year. I have no desire to pick up a striking art again, but you never know what the future may hold.

The main pro of this approach for me is that it keeps me training. I am, fundamentally, a lazy bastard. If I don't like the training, I won't go.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've seen several posts from those who, for whatever reason, seem to have bounced from style to style - a year here, a couple there, another year or five somewhere else, and so on. Then, there are those who have stayed with one style for many years. And there are those who've followed a combination of these MA paths. No doubt there will be various opinions on the value of each of these MA experiences and there will be some validity to most of them.

I think the basic question involves depth verses breadth, horizontal verses vertical development. What are the pros and cons of these approaches and is there an ideal approach or balance?

Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You (general YOU) need to stay long enough in one system to finish your foundation building. After that, you may need to enhance the following 3 areas:

1. power generation.
2. speed generation.
3. throwing skill.

If your primary art doesn't have it, you may need to cross training from other styles.

How do you know if your style has it or not? If your teacher tells you that

- if you stay long enough in his style, you will get it (this style doesn't have it).
- if you train the following drills, you will get it (this style has it).

 

[Buka]

A person’s path in Martial Arts is more often than not determined by circumstance.

I suppose it would be nice if everyone had a half dozen convenient Dojos to choose from. To watch classes in all of them and pick what we think might suit us.

I suppose it would be great, or at least convenient, if dojos never closed down, just stayed open and taught us everything there is to learn in Martial Arts throughout the length of our lives.

Of course, that it IS possible. Usually happens right after every beautiful woman in the world pounds on our doors to throw stacks of C-notes at us.

With love and respect, from a Jack of all trades, and a Master of none.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Jack of all trades, master of none.

I agree, so long as you look at the full quote: A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a Jack of all trades, and a Master of none.

You (general YOU) train MA to solve problems. There are many problems that need to be solved.

You may be the best boxer on this planet, but if you don't know how to counter a single leg, after your opponent has taken you down by single leg, your boxing skill will mean nothing.

 

[Badhabits]

Some of us didn't have a choice. You can only study what's available, and if what's available changes every couple of years you're kinda screwed. I've had 1-4 years time in multiple arts due to this scenario. Where we live now, there's a stable dojo that's been in place with the same instructor for decades. So that has been my primary system for the last 8 years roughly. The progress in these last few years has been greater. It is definitely better to stick with one system as a primary and branch out from there if you feel the need. The problem with system hopping is that only learning the basics of multiple systems makes it take much much longer to get to the point where you can put your basics together in way that they operate as an actual system. Learning a bunch of different ways to do things sounds good. And it is after a certain point. But only after a certain point. Definitely not in the beginning IMO. I think the key part here is the word system. From what I've seen most people don't even get the concept of how the movements of a style or ryu function as a system until at least a few years in. You can get good at fighting, moving etc and it'll get you by. But it's not the same as being able to put things together as an actual system where one movement facilitates the next.
On the other hand, learning basics from multiple systems can show you what details and principles are important, what is common across different disciplines, and what details don't particularly matter. I don't care if a person chambers their fist at the hip vs rib vs below their nipple vs at the solar plexus. Not that important.
But just based on my experience, I do think a person will progress faster overall by choosing one style/ryu and learning how to use it as an actual functioning system before branching out.

 

[Badhabits]

One other thing to add, there are a lot of teachers out there that won't even teach more advanced concepts to people who haven't been with them for some years. There are plenty who do, but if you're dealing with the first type you get deprived of learning a lot of stuff if you don't stick with them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What are the pros and cons of these approaches and is there an ideal approach or balance?

If Taiji is the only MA system that you have trained, you will be good at "yield", but you will not be good at "resist against force". In other words, you may see combat only from the soft side and you may not see combat from the hard side.

When your opponent sweeps your leg, you need to be able to

- bend your leg and let the sweeping leg to go under your leg (yield).
- turn you shin bone into the sweep leg (resist against force).

You will need to be good at both "yield" and "resist against force". If your MA system only teach you 1 without the other, you will need cross training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Speaking as one who trained one style for 30 years, and now thinking that was about 15 years to long, I can see benefits of both approaches. It is, in many cases, as @Buka already said, left to circumstances. And for others it is what they, as an individual, want to get out of training Martial Arts. To each his own....

 

[skribs]

There are so many variables to this question. Even if you take an "all else being equal" approach.

If you want to specialize (i.e. compete in TKD at the highest level), then obviously focusing on that will really help. That particular sport is very min-maxed, and there's probably not much you're going to get towards that goal by spending much time on anything else.

If you want to specialize in boxing, then it probably helps to focus on boxing. You might learn something from a Muay Thai guy that you might not have from a boxing guy, but in general the differences in what you'll learn in each are because of the different rules, and it's probably better to focus on boxing.

On the other hand, something like BJJ can really benefit from other grappling arts, especially wrestling and Judo. So it may make more sense to dabble in those. Technically you can learn all that from BJJ folks if you find the right ones. But you're probably going to get better standup by doing either wrestling or Judo, and you'll learn things about top pressure and pin escapes from wrestling.

Or are you looking to round out your skills? This one goes the opposite direction. Something like boxing is very narrow in scope, and you very quickly hit a point where all you're doing is learning how to beat other boxers. Probably a good idea to mix it up at that point. Or if you're doing BJJ, it's something you can do for years and still feel like you're only scratching the surface.

Or do you just want to train, but you move a lot (new jobs, military, etc.) so you just find the best martial art school in an area. Or you get bored of something after a few years and want something different, but still want to be active. Or you feel like you've plateaued, or you feel you've outgrown what your school has to offer, or you had a falling out with that school. There's a lot of reasons.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The statement I usually hear is that a person "wants to be more well-rounded." I don't even know what that means. It sounds like they're saying they want to suck at two things instead of getting good at one.

I'll spend the rest of my life on the system I study and won't have extracted all it has to offer. I fail to understand how training in some other system helps me.

 

[ap Oweyn]

The statement I usually hear is that a person "wants to be more well-rounded." I don't even know what that means. It sounds like they're saying they want to suck at two things instead of getting good at one.

I'll spend the rest of my life on the system I study and won't have extracted all it has to offer. I fail to understand how training in some other system helps me.

Unsurprisingly, I feel the opposite. I hear "jack of all trades; master of none" and immediately want to hear a clear, detailed description of what "master" means in this context. No slight to those who choose to spend their lives in one art. Follow your bliss. I'll follow mine.

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah it's an interesting topic... and of course pros and cons to each depending on your specific intentions, goals and trajectory of training.

I personally think certain arts are more hmmm how shall I say... designed to train and learn deeply. In that it takes a lot more effort and time to become proficient. And I appreciate and follow this approach more in my practice. Staying within the one art, yet still learning from other viewpoints allows me to go deeper within my own art, other perspectives enriching and allowing different practices to emerge.

It also goes with how I view something else... I often hear people say "nah you've gotta be a more well-rounded and balanced martial art artist", but my view of being a balanced martial artist is different, and doesn't relate to just being good at everything in martial arts. This is fine, but I feel balance relates to a depth of holistic training within your path, not in being good at striking, and grapping, and groundwork, and weapons etc etc.. that appears to be adding more 'stuff'. Again, this is completely fine. You learn alot technically here, but it's possible to be information overload simply because there're more things you can always add. This may be school dependent of course in terms of integrating it all whilst still being able to delve into the foundations and developing depth and so on.

But sorta like that Venn diagram I see that depicts balance as being equal measures of health, finance, hobbies, social, family, spiritual etc. I don't see balance like that, but as an ever-shifting necessity that either relates to need or curiosity. Sometimes I need my priority in a certain area, so this area is emphasised or prioritised in order gain more balance across the board. It's more a positioning of your time and attention that helps all others grow too.

For example, I trained many many years in a very hard style. It took its toll, so I had to seek out something softer, but still with harder elements. In really emphasising the soft I could truly appreciate and gain more understanding as to the harder stuff, and in a more balanced and healthier way of approaching it.

Anyway haha, being more well-rounded in martial arts to me means being open to where you need to develop, evolve, integrate and consolidate within your chosen art. Not only a focus on adding stuff, but in exploring the same in more depth, and applying it to different contexts and parameters. And in this way it's not merely a "master of one", but a pathway that's deep and fulfilling on alot of levels. Rather than accumulating its focus is refining and deepening.

I have no idea if I made any sense haha but here we are!

 

[Buka]

The statement I usually hear is that a person "wants to be more well-rounded." I don't even know what that means. It sounds like they're saying they want to suck at two things instead of getting good at one.

I'll spend the rest of my life on the system I study and won't have extracted all it has to offer. I fail to understand how training in some other system helps me.

It doesn’t help you, Bill, not at all. Nobody is saying you should study another system.
And I’ve never known anyone who wanted to suck at anything in Martial Arts, never mind two things.

Of course we all know we all suck in a dozen things in Martial Arts.

 

[drop bear]

The statement I usually hear is that a person "wants to be more well-rounded." I don't even know what that means. It sounds like they're saying they want to suck at two things instead of getting good at one.

I'll spend the rest of my life on the system I study and won't have extracted all it has to offer. I fail to understand how training in some other system helps me.

Because everyone cheats at the system they do a bit.

We use your strengths to cover for our weaknesses.

A different system will prioritise different strengths. And that forces us to develop a deeper understanding.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It doesn’t help you, Bill, not at all. Nobody is saying you should study another system.
And I’ve never known anyone who wanted to suck at anything in Martial Arts, never mind two things.

Of course we all know we all suck in a dozen things in Martial Arts.

When someone says they have mastered X and now want to learn Y, I wonder about X, or about their self-assessment that they've mastered it.

When someone feels frustrated by their progress in X and bounces to Y hoping to find some inner contentment that they didn't find in X, I wonder about their ability to be patient with themselves and stick to a path.

Maybe it's me. I seem to be one of the few who doesn't feel a need to collect belts or experience multiple systems. I respect them all; I've seen some really interesting things in other arts; it's not that. But I can respect other systems without wanting to learn them all.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Unsurprisingly, I feel the opposite. I hear "jack of all trades; master of none" and immediately want to hear a clear, detailed description of what "master" means in this context. No slight to those who choose to spend their lives in one art. Follow your bliss. I'll follow mine.

Absolutely agree. Mastery to me simply means the condition which comes with a long-term immersion in a style, with the hopefully attendant wisdom that sometimes accompanies such experience. Personally, I claim no mastery, I am merely competent. However, by training in multiple styles, I'd not even possess that.

It's not a foundation that is always desirable, I confess. I know only a bit about a lot of things, like fence building and automobile body work and automotive painting and carburetor repair; enough to muddle through with a low-grade 'meh' ability. On the other hand, I've not chosen to become good at those things; I only devoted enough time and energy to be able to perform them with low-grade but acceptable-for-me results. That's fine. It still beats not being able to do them at all. In such things, I often use the maxim "Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good."

If I were studying martial arts for exercise, or social interaction, or competition, or even self-defense only, I might think differently than I do.

However, when people ask my opinion, that is my opinion.

 

[Hot Lunch]

When someone says they have mastered X and now want to learn Y, I wonder about X, or about their self-assessment that they've mastered it.

When someone feels frustrated by their progress in X and bounces to Y hoping to find some inner contentment that they didn't find in X, I wonder about their ability to be patient with themselves and stick to a path.

Maybe it's me. I seem to be one of the few who doesn't feel a need to collect belts or experience multiple systems. I respect them all; I've seen some really interesting things in other arts; it's not that. But I can respect other systems without wanting to learn them all.

I only feel this way if someone is taking up a second martial art for its own sake, particulary when they're not very choosy about what that second martial art is going to be.

However, if you have a plan for how the secondary martial will build on your primary one, I don't feel that way at all.