Youth Black Belts

[terryl965]

And between the three of us, we probably have enough accumulated training injuries to make a strong case for cybernetics research.

Daniel

Yes we do and for the record I broke my toe. Man what else can one do.

 

[terryl965]

I would like to add that the size of a tournament does not matter but the quality of the bigger tournament is so much better. You see the cream of the crop will be at the National level tournaments and thos enot ready for that are at the state level. I said I will stay out of this but TF brought up some great points earlier, I wish the GM themself would come on and explain instead of people attending schools. Not trying to be little anyone just stating the facts.

 

[Twin Fist]

Twin Fist,

You seem to have some very strong opinions about this subject. I have posted on this thread my TKD affiliation. Are you from a traditional TKD school a Sport school? I am not questioning your credentials just trying to get some background so that I can understand where you are coming from (I am a Newbie to Martial Talk). We started at a traditional school and are currently on a sport team with some traditional leanings. We still do forms and self-defense but mostly focus on the sport side.

I come from the Allen Steen "Blood and Guts" Tex Kwon Do lineage. Half the time, we do even call it TKD, many of us still call it KOREAN KARATE, which is what it is.

no sport fighting, just FIGHTING

sports are sports, i got into karate for hard core self defense, not to wear little pull over pajamas so i can throw little flippy no power kicks and fall over while i do it.

someone wants to get into the sport aspect, fine, dont call yourself a Black Belt

Black Belts are for MARTIAL ARTS, not sports.

 

[Twin Fist]

oh shoot, the new guy put me on his iggy list...i am sad now. And he sent me a nasty gram about it. *chuckle*

Daniel has the right of it, school standards are relative. What is a legit BB in one school might be a green belt at another school.

this was avoided in the old days because the schools would police each other, if someone was teaching cheese, the other school owners would have a little chat with him.

back then, they realized that one person teaching cheese made them all look cheesy, and it wasnt tolerated.

but in todays world, we dont do that.

I think i liked it better in the old days

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel has the right of it, school standards are relative. What is a legit BB in one school might be a green belt at another school.

Absolutely. Their are two issues at play here.

Rank inflation
Usually accompanied by lousy teaching. Rank inflation is essentially what is happening when students are just passed along without regards to their actual level of proficiency.

Differing school focus
Different schools can have radically different flavors and can all be excellent schools. A school where the master seeks to have a peacful zen garden atmosphere and strresses spiritual qualities will produce a different kind of student than school where competition is the main focus and the master seeks to have a modern athletics atmosphere with all of the latest gear and modern training methods.

Then there is the old school traditional dojo where the emphasis is on how to dismantle your opponent before he and his buddies can dismantle you.

Then you have schools that do a little bit of everything (mine). And there are others and combinations of the above as well.

Nothing wrong with any of these. So long as the teaching is solid and the black belt students are actually proficient in the school's core curriculum.

Zen garden's BBs should all be smooth and graceful. They should be well versed in the tenets and philosophy of taekwondo. They should know the meanings of the poomsae.

A BB in a WTF sport competition focused school should be a monster in the ring, should kick like a mule and should know the rules and peculiarities of the sport and all of the commands and such in Korean.

The B & G school BBs should be tough as nails, know all of the possible SD applications for the poomsae, and kick like a mule, punch like a sledgehammer, and block they have a targe attached to each arm. They should have strong awareness and be able to handle multiple opponents and have at least a rudimentary defense against knives. Oh, and breakfalls, breakfalls, breakfalls. And rolls.

The all around school BB should be reasonably competent in the ring, have a good base of the tenets and thought of the art, and be able to handle themselves in an SD situation without freezing up and panicking.

Whatever the focus of the school, the students skill should reflect their rank and belt and should receive their promotions based on their progression in the schools curriculum.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

And in many other schools, that five year brown belt would be a second dan black.

Daniel

Funny you should mention something like that. We had an incident where my youngest son, who at the time was 8 and a green belt (5th gup/kyu), participated at an "Open" taekwondo tournament. Baiscly they allowed karate people to participate, but it was ran like a TKD tournament. We were the only non TKD people there. He won his age/rank forms division and got to participate in the grands where they had all the winners of the same age go of his age go against each other. He wound up winning the overall grands beating out the black belts.

One parent didn't believe he was a green belt and accused us of cheating, they asked him how long he had been studying. Elijah told them he had been studying for four years. The parent told him he should have been ranked as a black belt if he was in it that long. Elijah told them that it was hard to get a black belt at our school, because you have to know all your forms, weapons, ippons, taezus, sparring and history. Their kid braggingly told Elijah that he has been in it for 4 years and he's already a 2nd dan and he just needed to know his form for testing, his required breaking technique and required one-step sparring. Without missing a beat Elijah told him "I guess that's why I beat you."

Nearly bit my tonugue off trying to stop from laughing out loud at that remark.

 

[miguksaram]

miguksaram - Glad you didn't take offense, my comments were NOT meant to attack you, or your school in any way. You asked Who is your GM? I've learned NOT to divulge any information on these forums lest the sharks attack. I tried sharing my personal experiences only to have them attacked, so I won't do that again.

Undestood. I am from Aurora, IL and know, either through meeting or through reputation, a good number of the GM's in our area, so I was just curious to see if I knew your GM. Wasn't trying to gather ammo for attack.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

miguksaram - Glad you didn't take offense, my comments were NOT meant to attack you, or your school in any way. You asked Who is your GM? I've learned NOT to divulge any information on these forums lest the sharks attack. I tried sharing my personal experiences only to have them attacked, so I won't do that again.

Daniel, you said Without trying to seem condescending, that is irrelevant to the discussion. When I mentioned that the GM at my son's school has over 50 years of experience.

My comments were in response to a poster saying there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from. The Grand Master at my son's school has been involved in TKD for over five decades - half a century - himself.

I'm glad you posted the requirements for your school. After reading through them I see that there isn't much difference.

They need to know all of their taegeuk poomsae Same.

must demonstrated sparring proficiency in the WTF rule set Little different. My son had to spar 2v1 and 3v1.

have a working knowledge of Korean terminology Same.

and perform all of the hand and leg techniques in various stances Same.

Four different breaks of GM Kim's choosing. Different. Only 2 breaks required, though one is a cement brick.

A full warmup complete with a ton of pushups are all a part of the test. 100 each of the basic kicks (front, turning, side, axe), 100 punches, an assorted number of blocks as he calls them out until he is satisfied Same. Except all warm up kicks are Jumping. One set of 100 Jumping Front Snaps - 50 Pushups, a set of 100 Jumping Round House - 50 Pushups. I think they did a total of 500 Jumping Kicks with 200 Pushups spaced between. One student was excused to "yak"... he came back in and continued a couple minutes later.

The student must also know all of the self defense techniques Same.

After all that, you spar four high belt/black belt students of varying sizes with no rest in between and then spar one of the instructors. Different. As I mentioned before, it was 2v1 sparring, then 3v1 sparring. My son's school is more of a Poomse school.

It seems that our requirements are very close eh Daniel?

Not so different, no.

Just for the record, and as stated previously, I make no judgements about your son's school or GM. Or anyone else's for that matter.

Regarding the decades of experience comment, it is not a question of member's experience being greater than that of your GM, but one of different experiences.

When you (the general you, not you specifically) are with one GM who has decades of experience at a school where you are a big fish in a small pond (which is what my experience was), then you come to a large forum and are no longer in the small pond, you benefit not just from your' own GM's perspective, but from many perspectives.

Kind of like going from a small local tournament to a state or national tournament, and you realize that there is a whole lot more out there than you had previously thought.

Daniel

 

[TKD_Father]

Absolutely. Their are two issues at play here.

Rank inflation
Usually accompanied by lousy teaching. Rank inflation is essentially what is happening when students are just passed along without regards to their actual level of proficiency.

Differing school focus
Different schools can have radically different flavors and can all be excellent schools. A school where the master seeks to have a peacful zen garden atmosphere and strresses spiritual qualities will produce a different kind of student than school where competition is the main focus and the master seeks to have a modern athletics atmosphere with all of the latest gear and modern training methods.

Daniel

Outstanding post, exactly what I've been trying to convey. My son's school focuses on Forms. And not the Sine Wave stuff... I have yet to fully grasp that, but that's for another thread.

Undestood. I am from Aurora, IL and know, either through meeting or through reputation, a good number of the GM's in our area, so I was just curious to see if I knew your GM. Wasn't trying to gather ammo for attack.

Hey neighbor! I know you weren't, it's the other low life vultures here that would. No offense to the high life vultures.

 

[mwd0818]

Outstanding post, exactly what I've been trying to convey. My son's school focuses on Forms. And not the Sine Wave stuff... I have yet to fully grasp that, but that's for another thread.

Glad to see more people getting along now.

In any case TKD Father - congrats on your son's promotion and hopefully he has found something that he can train and enjoy for a lifetime as many of the members on here do.

Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . .

why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?

 

[TKD_Father]

Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . .

why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?

I'd absolutely love to participate with my son!

In my case, I blew out my knee playing racquetball in the Military. It's never been the same. Arthroscopic + rehab - flexibility - ability to straighten, does not equal TKD.

 

[mwd0818]

I'd absolutely love to participate with my son!

In my case, I blew out my knee playing racquetball in the Military. It's never been the same. Arthroscopic + rehab - flexibility - ability to straighten, does not equal TKD.

Good point . . . TKD and bad legs don't go well together. And as far as sport goes, TKD is one of the best martial sports out there with the availability of tournaments, world recognition of rulesets, etc. I see why a lot of kids participate as it is giving them an athletic endeavor and a sports/competition outlet not to mention just the general martial arts training exposure. Keep an eye out, and hopefully one day you'll find some way to get in there (hapkido maybe if you are sticking with Korean arts?).

(Not detracting from any TKD school's self-defense curriculum or focus, but I have trouble taking my Hawaiian Kempo forms into tournaments and doing anything with them, because everyone is expecting to see TKD or Japanese Karate forms. That, and you guys don't like the way we spar, or maybe we just don't like rules . . . )

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Outstanding post, exactly what I've been trying to convey. My son's school focuses on Forms. And not the Sine Wave stuff... I have yet to fully grasp that, but that's for another thread.

Sine wave is ITF, so I doubt that a KKW only student would ever encounter it in class. The general principle, from what I can see, is that it involes an up down motion to generate power. The motion resembles a sine wave as it appears on an occilloscope, hence the name. Probably works well for some techniques (front kicks, punches), not as well for others (turnng kicks, hook kicks, and such).

Hey neighbor! I know you weren't, it's the other low life vultures here that would. No offense to the high life vultures.

Nor did I take offense, but implying that other members are low life vultures is a bit over the top.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd absolutely love to participate with my son!

In my case, I blew out my knee playing racquetball in the Military. It's never been the same. Arthroscopic + rehab - flexibility - ability to straighten, does not equal TKD.

For starters, thank you for your service.

Not sure if your doctor would caution against it, but if you tried out TKD, you may simply have to accept that that leg will not be your high kicker. Or concentrate on the hand techniques (there are tons).

Daniel

 

[shesulsa]

Glad to see more people getting along now.

In any case TKD Father - congrats on your son's promotion and hopefully he has found something that he can train and enjoy for a lifetime as many of the members on here do.

Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . .

why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?

Probably the same reason the high school quarterback's dad isn't on the field ... either he has other endeavors which claim his time, it's not the sport for him, or he has already learned many of the lessons afforded by youth sports.

I will say that I can't support promoting such a young child to a black rank. But I will say that I think many expect things from kids' martial arts programs here in the West that are unreasonable in every case and difficult to deliver.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But I will say that I think many expect things from kids' martial arts programs here in the West that are unreasonable in every case and difficult to deliver.

Well, one thing to consider is that most kids martial arts programs are focused on character building and sport, so you have more of a youth sports program oftimes than a traditional martial arts program.

The mentality is that the martial arts can develop discipline and strong character in a child. While I do believe that martial arts can, many schools simply use this line of marketing to milk parents of money while delivering an inferior product as compared to what youth sports usually deliver.

One area that I do feel martial arts do for kids is that every kid gets to 'play' so to speak. In other words, your kid who is not athletic does not get benched because he or she is unathletic: they have to do the same forms and such as everyone else and have full class participation. On test day, they get to do their best and either pass or not, along with everyone else, whereas on game day, only the "better" players are given time on the field and an opportunity to score.

The focus of a sports team is to win, while the focus of a martial art is to train the individual, and for that reason, I am a strong proponent of kids in martial arts.

Daniel

 

[mwd0818]

Probably the same reason the high school quarterback's dad isn't on the field ... either he has other endeavors which claim his time, it's not the sport for him, or he has already learned many of the lessons afforded by youth sports.

I agree, but was just pointing out that there are a lot of benefits afforded by martial arts at any age.

 

[Gorilla]

Twin Fist...Thank you for your input...I think hardcore self-defense is a great thing...I did for several years...In the US Army and several jobs that I had as a youth..., which included Repo Man, Bouncing and PI work, and some bounty work. Never held a Dan Rank but if you are into Hard Core Self Def formal martial arts (TKD, Judo etc...) is not needed "nice to have" but not needed. Sport TKD is a different thing. I know people who are good at both. However, to compare Sport TKD to Self Def TKD is apples and oranges. The thing that we disagree on is that one should not diminish the other….but based on your own statements this is your role on Martial Arts Talk…You do a very good job!!!

 

[miguksaram]

Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . .

why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?

I do and am. My son and I are both going up for our black belts in Shorei on the 15th of August (well mine is adult and his is Jr....the only difference between our tests is about 2 hours.)

We have had a few parents join later after their kid was moving up in rank. Funny thing is that parents who do that tend to zip through the first belts pretty quickly because they have been working with their kid for so long on their stuff.

 

[jim777]

Wow, it's been a while since I read a complete 10 page thread in one shot, but this one has been a very easy read. I've laughed out loud reading this thread, shaken my head in utter disbelief, and laughed some more.