Youth Black Belts

[ATC]

This is my opinion regarding black belt standards for ten and under.

1. Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
2. Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
3. Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
4. The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
5. The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
6. Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
7. For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.
Daniel

We have 3 (well two are 11) at our school alone that meet these requirements. And they are all pooms at this time.

I can also tell you that many of the adults hated testing with them, as they made most of the adults look really bad as far as techniques were concerned.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Funny!!! I thought that Daniel's assumption that Masters who use "NEVER" in this regard are using Hyperbole did not apply in your case.

Certainly, T/F would be an exception here, but I was not speaking of masters who use never; just the use of the term in general, both by masters and non masters alike.

Hyperbolic use of the term never differs from policy of never. I feel that I can safely say that Twin Fist will never promote a child of ten or under to black belt.

On the other hand I would not categorically say that a ten year old in general can never be a "true" black belt, which is, I think, what some have said and what got the discussion moving in this direction.

Then of course, there is the question of what defines a true black belt. I would gather that this differs from person to person and from school to school. I have already stated my own definition, which is hinged entirely on a specific level of proficiency.

Some people use a relative scale of personal improvement. This is how many schools award rank, thus a handicapped student who trains hard may not have the same physical ability as a non-handicapped student, but he or she has put in the work and can execute the techniques to the very best of his or her ability. Or a child student who may not be able to execute at an adult level, but who has trained hard and does the very best that they possibly can do.

I think that my main issue with child BB's is that it really is not appropriate to put a child through an adult test due to vulnerabilities that a growing child's body has that an adult's does not. There are similar cautions regarding certain levels of weight training and children below a certain age. The main issue is to avoid injury to the child until the skeletal structure is sound.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

ok, lets play what if.

say a 10 year old walks into my place and claims a poom rank

he is gonna have to show me his stuff.

thats goes one of two ways:

1) he is bruce lee jr. in that case, we wears a plain BB till he learns my system and tests for Jr BB, then gets a DAN belt at 16

2) he sucks like every other 10 yr old BB i have ever seen, in that case, he can put on a white belt. Like everyone else.

Twin Fist,

Describe the standards that he/she would have to meet to be considered Bruce Lee Jr. I am very interested in you thoughts not just some dismissive retort. I am sure that you have some insight that will be of value to this forum. Thats why I started this thread to learn from everyone.

 

[Twin Fist]

Daniel,
let me be clear. I will NEVER promote a 10 yr old to a DAN rank.

a jr BB? maybe, but i cant see it happening. From what I have seen, it would only happen if they came in with a TON of GOOD training already. a more likely age would be 12-14 for a JR BB



i will NEVER promote under 16 to DAN rank.

that isnt hyperbole. it is a FACT

a Jr BB certainly, if they meet my standards, which are simple:

I wont be afraid for them on the street.

 

[Twin Fist]

Describe the standards that he/she would have to meet to be considered Bruce Lee Jr.

This sums it up well:


1. Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
2. Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
3. Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
4. The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
5. The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
6. Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
7. For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.

in addition, the mental toughness so that if we are sparring, and i grab them, and throw them on the ground, they dont freak out and start crying.

 

[d1jinx]

ok, lets play what if.

say a 10 year old walks into my place and claims a poom rank

he is gonna have to show me his stuff.

thats goes one of two ways:

1) he is bruce lee jr. in that case, we wears a plain BB till he learns my system and tests for Jr BB, then gets a DAN belt at 16

2) he sucks like every other 10 yr old BB i have ever seen, in that case, he can put on a white belt. Like everyone else.

I agree. any student walks in, they are assessed and not always keep the belt they have.

 

[terryl965]

I see where everyone say crisp exact forms or poomsae or Kata, what happen to the application? Are these not being tought anymore? I mean for me it is more important to understand the application of poomsae, form, or Kata than be able to look like a dance of some kind.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I see where everyone say crisp exact forms or poomsae or Kata, what happen to the application? Are these not being tought anymore? I mean for me it is more important to understand the application of poomsae, form, or Kata than be able to look like a dance of some kind.

Totally agree with you.

My personal reason for crisp exact forms is that the student is doing them without a resisting opponent, so there is no reason for a form to be performed sloppily at the black belt level. For a BB, each technique should be performed proficiently and in a way that it would be effective if used against an opponent.

For example, Koryo should have the first two side kicks aimed at the knee and the chest, not the face and the sky.

Also, if the student, be they ten or twenty, looks like they are having seizures when they do their form, then it is obvious that they cannot perform the techniques in a practical application, whether or not they know the application. Which by blackbelt level, they darn well better.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel,
let me be clear. I will NEVER promote a 10 yr old to a DAN rank.

a jr BB? maybe, but i cant see it happening. From what I have seen, it would only happen if they came in with a TON of GOOD training already. a more likely age would be 12-14 for a JR BB



i will NEVER promote under 16 to DAN rank.

that isnt hyperbole. it is a FACT

a Jr BB certainly, if they meet my standards, which are simple:

I wont be afraid for them on the street.

I never doubted you for a minute.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I caught this too late to edit. The correction is in blue.

Certainly, T/F would be an exception here, but I was not speaking of masters who use never; just the use of the term in general, both by masters and non masters alike.

A hyperbolic "never" is different from a policy of "never." I feel that I can safely say that Twin Fist will never promote a child of ten or under to black belt.

On the other hand I would not categorically say that a ten year old in general can never be a "true" black belt, which is, I think, what some have said and what got the discussion moving in this direction.

Then of course, there is the question of what defines a true black belt. I would gather that this differs from person to person and from school to school. I have already stated my own definition, which is hinged entirely on a specific level of proficiency.

Some people use a relative scale of personal improvement. This is how many schools award rank, thus a handicapped student who trains hard may not have the same physical ability as a non-handicapped student, but he or she has put in the work and can execute the techniques to the very best of his or her ability. Or a child student who may not be able to execute at an adult level, but who has trained hard and does the very best that they possibly can do.

I think that my main issue with child BB's is that it really is not appropriate to put a child through an adult test due to vulnerabilities that a growing child's body has that an adult's does not. There are similar cautions regarding certain levels of weight training and children below a certain age. The main issue is to avoid injury to the child until the skeletal structure is sound.

Daniel

Sorry.

Daniel

 

[mwd0818]

Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole. Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.

I don't teach TKD, but by definition, that would be impossible in my instruction in Kempo. I'll start a student as young as 6, but Black Belt takes about 5-7 years for an adult, and I need about 3-4 more for a child (same requirements). Therefore, minimum, they would be 14, and I've never had anyone stick around 8 years for that one. Most of the time, it's 16 at least, and at that point, they've earned a full Dan ranking Black Belt.

Not TKD, but just depositing my $1.63 (2 cents adjusted for inflation).

 

[mwd0818]

And to the point of a 10 year old walking in wearing a Black Belt and wanting to training with me. I have two rules:

1) If you are stopping in to train, you are welcome to wear whatever belt/uniform you wish. You will be respected and will be judged not on the color of your belt or the number of stripes, but your skill.

2) If you wish to learn and become a student, your rank will be a direct reflection of your knowledge of the arts I teach. Your previous rank will be respected, but a Black Belt in one art does not necessarily translate to anything more than (possibly) faster progression in another.*

*Since the arts I teach come from Hawaii in origin, I do offer some concessions to martial artists from other Hawaiian arts in lineage. You come in with experience in Kajukenbo, CHA-3, Karazenpo, Shaolin Kenpo (different art), etc., you may not be a white belt. Come in from Goju-Ryu, TKD, Hapkido or Judo, and you'll be back at white.

 

[Gorilla]

My Son who is 12 is going to be testing for his 3rd Poom. I was a little bit concerned that he was to young but after some discussion the Master on his team thinks that he is ready they will put him through a 3 month course to make sure that he is ready and then he will test. My daughter who is 15 almost 16 will test for her 2nd Dan is without a doubt ready.

My son was a 1st Poom at 7 1/2 and 2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2. I have met several people who have ?'s his qualifications before they saw him fight or train or witnessed his demeanor in the dojang. None have have questioned it after they have seen him fight train or act in person...I know hand full of 12-13 year olds who hold this rank from different schools all owned by responsible Masters who(IMHO) deserve the rank 3rd Poom. It can and does happen...By the way all 3 poom ranks will have come from different schools(we had to move because of Job) not a school hopper. So three different Masters ranking 5th, 6th and 9th agree that he deserves this rank...Let the debate begin again do you think that it is possible that my kid might deserve this rank(don't worry I wont get my feelings hurt )

 

[shesulsa]

I suppose I'd ask, "what does 'deserves this rank' mean?" That he had perfect attendance? can perform the laundry list of what he was supposed to memorize?

There will never be any kind of agreement on putting black belts on children. I think, personally, it's not so much the color of the belt but the connotation it carries.

There are plenty of adults in TKD who believe little kids and teenagers should hold black rank. I am not an adult in TKD and I don't believe little kids nor teenagers should hold black (nor even high color) rank.

That said, I have not met your children. But I can imagine only a few things worse than handing a good kid an award which requires much maturity.

 

[TKD_Father]

Your son sounds amazing, truly talented.

You should be very proud.

 

[Twin Fist]

no thanks.

 

[Gorilla]

He seems to handle it quite well. It has only increased his dedication and work ethic. I don't push my kids this is their choice. Allot of people put allot of thought into whether he deserves this and the answer is if he can get through the next 3 months yes. They don't give way Black belts grades easy. It is his choice to do the work. My kids see TKD as a life long commitment. They have allot of strong mentors.

 

[Twin Fist]

They don't give way Black belts grades easy.

he got Black at 7
yes, they do give them away easy.

too easy

just my opinion, and i dont care if you agree with me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My Son who is 12 is going to be testing for his 3rd Poom. I was a little bit concerned that he was to young but after some discussion the Master on his team thinks that he is ready they will put him through a 3 month course to make sure that he is ready and then he will test. My daughter who is 15 almost 16 will test for her 2nd Dan is without a doubt ready.

My son was a 1st Poom at 7 1/2 and 2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2. I have met several people who have ?'s his qualifications before they saw him fight or train or witnessed his demeanor in the dojang. None have have questioned it after they have seen him fight train or act in person...I know hand full of 12-13 year olds who hold this rank from different schools all owned by responsible Masters who(IMHO) deserve the rank 3rd Poom. It can and does happen...By the way all 3 poom ranks will have come from different schools(we had to move because of Job) not a school hopper. So three different Masters ranking 5th, 6th and 9th agree that he deserves this rank...Let the debate begin again do you think that it is possible that my kid might deserve this rank(don't worry I wont get my feelings hurt )

Even with the Kukkiwon providing 'portable rank' via serving as an international rank registry, a black belt is really meaningful only in the school in which the student was taught, tested and promoted. If he is has met that school's standards for a first poom, then he is deserving of it by that school's standards.

In another school, your son may be incredibly advanced. In another school, he may be considered a low belt. In the school he is currently in, he is considered right for his rank.

There is no debate, as standards varry from school to school. Different schools promote based on different criteria. Our school has an exceptionally physical test. Other schools focus more on the mental, and others on technicals. Some schools focus on personal development, which will be different from student to student.

What is done in my school does not reflect in any way on what is done in yours, which does not reflect in any way on what is done in Twin Fist's school. If you are happy where you are, then great.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

yeah, just dont be shocked if you go to another school and he gets his butt handed to him on a platter......


it could happen.