Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news

[puunui]

Overall, Taekwondo seems to be helping Benjie to become very fit in mind and body, focus at school and become a well disciplined big brother at home. He also is developing good management and people skills. I don't see how that's a bad thing especially when we consider how so many children in this country face ignorance, mental illness, obesity, and tons of other societal problems.

I agree. Kudos to your son as well, taking the initiative like he has.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is your kumdo based on Hankumdo? I know that your background is in IHF Hapkido, but not made the possible connection to Hankumdo until now.

No. My GM has a kendo background and the forms he uses are ones that I have not seen elsewhere. He said that they come from Choson sebeop, but I have never been able to find them or verify their origins outside of the school. The partnered hyeong look more like what you'd see in a kenjutsu school.

None of what we do resembles Hankumdo or Haidong geomdo.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

No. My GM has a kendo background and the forms he uses are ones that I have not seen elsewhere. He said that they come from Choson sebeop, but I have never been able to find them or verify their origins outside of the school.

I did a quick search and found this article on choson sebeop. The founder sounds highly qualified and apparently has written a lot of books on the subject.

http://mookas.us/media_view.asp?news_no=701

 

[andyjeffries]

My son Benjie, for one, is inspired by the story of the six-year old boy.

Then aside from all the arguments and personal sniping in this thread, I'm glad I posted the OP.

My own son is 8 and probably won't make 1st poom until he's 12 (he started at 6 and is now an 8th geup, my instructor grades them slowly!).

 

[Archtkd]

Then aside from all the arguments and personal sniping in this thread, I'm glad I posted the OP.

My own son is 8 and probably won't make 1st poom until he's 12 (he started at 6 and is now an 8th geup, my instructor grades them slowly!).

You know one thing, and perhaps the most important think, which I forgot to say is that these childrent make us want to be better fathers and martial artists. If that is not a good and important, I don't know what is.

 

[Twin Fist]

Why is it unethical to go from blue belt to 4th Dan in one year but not unethical to go from 6th to 7th Dan in one year?

there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th

there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan

if you were seriously asking that question, you have much to learn about martial arts....

 

[puunui]

there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th

there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan

I don't think there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th and 7th Dan, having been through those levels myself. And if there is no difference between 6th and 7th Dan, then Earl's comment comes to mind, the one about whether someone has 30 years experience, or one year of experience 30 times.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Why is it unethical to go from blue belt to 4th Dan in one year but not unethical to go from 6th to 7th Dan in one year? If you look at the Kukkiwon time in grade requirements, it would take six years to go zero to 4th Dan (if you were promoted to 1st Dan today) and it would also take six years to go from 6th to 7th Dan. Why object on ethical or moral grounds in one situation but then accept rank in another, when the time in grade requirements are exactly the same?

Let's take a look at that. This individual had approx. 1 1/2 years total training time. I don't know who brought him to blue belt, but apparently they didn't do a very good job as my instructor had to teach him all the forms, drills etc. So I would say that 1 1/2 years is actually giving him a good six months. So in that time, without actually teaching anyone else he went from blue belt to 4th Dan master (Kwan rank). Do you find that a bit odd? Seriously. And apparently, the KKW 1st Dan he had was about to turn into a 2nd Dan KKW, again with less than normal KKW standard TIG.

So yes, I'd say that from basically zero to 4th Dan master in 1 1/2 years (at the most) is unethical and I'd say it was a good ole boy thing. I find that unethical. I find that racially motivated. That is my opinion.

Now let's take a look at my 6th to 7th in a year. First off, I'm not obligted to go by KKW TIG standards. And let's be real clear on this point...many people in the KKW haven't had to abide by KKW TIG standards. Be it for a legitimate reason, or not. You cannot deny that. Secondly, I had at that time 35 years in the arts. I have taught over 1000 people. I have run schools. I have owned a school. I have had students who have gone on to use what I taught them. I have had students rise through the ranks and teach themselves. And since MSK KSD is a blend of the totality of my training and not just TKD, I could simply start my 'clock' when I first put on a 1st Dan and began teaching which is 1986. That is more than enough TIG.

So I would submit that there is a rather large difference. If someone doesn't want to see that as legitimate enough then that is fine. I'll go back to something that you've stated that we're in total agreement on;

Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank.

Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.

One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th

there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan

if you were seriously asking that question, you have much to learn about martial arts....

He does have much to learn. But that is okay since we're all on a journy. And he knows there isn't much of a difference, its just a bait.

 

[andyjeffries]

So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest). GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man.

There are two KKW 8th Dans in the UK - GM SHIN Tong Wan, GM Tony (Satwinder Singh) Vohra. I don't know which one is more senior. GM Andy Davies and his brother Master Chris Davies 7th Dan KKW are nice friendly guys.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So yes, I'd say that from basically zero to 4th Dan master in 1 1/2 years (at the most) is unethical and I'd say it was a good ole boy thing. I find that unethical. I find that racially motivated. That is my opinion.

Actually, I think that fifth is 'master' rank, though I have heard that first through sixth is master. I don't know, but it also wouldn't make me blink either.

Going from fourth geub to fourth dan certainly saved that guy a ton of cash. So much for the KKW trying to get paid.

Now let's take a look at my 6th to 7th in a year. First off, I'm not obligted to go by KKW TIG standards. And let's be real clear on this point...many people in the KKW haven't had to abide by KKW TIG standards. Be it for a legitimate reason, or not. You cannot deny that.

The time in grade between dans is actually not Kukkiwon specific, and probably goes back to Judo and Shotokan. I really don't care how long or how short your personal time in grade is between your last and your current grade, but you should not imply that this is some kind of 'kukkiwon' thing, because it isn't.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I will cede the above are valid points and thank you for your courteous reply.

If I may ask you two questions:

1) are you questioning the validity of Master Cole's rank?

2) Do you deny the Kukkiwon's validity/usefulness in confirming lineage? I am not saying that every master who has a Kukkiwon certificate is above reproach. I don't think this can be said about any organization. Several people seem to agree in other threads that there is a significant amount of fraud among people who open TKD schools. It would seem having a way to verify that someone has the rank they claim and that it was vouched for by someone else who is also verified goes a long way to preventing fraudulent resumes.

1. I don't question his rank as his rank is unimportant to me. I question his courtesy and integrity. He makes a post just a couple of days ago saying he'll probably be off the board and if anyone would like to talk with him then email him. Then all of a sudden, out of 13 pages of a thread he has to put in a sarcastic one liner aimed at me personally. I believe that speaks volumes sir. Would you agree? Would you agree it was an unnecessary comment on his part perhaps?

2. If used correctly, yes. Can we all agree that maybe...just maybe things have been abused for commercial gain?

The bottom line is this; most people would agree that I've tried to engage in a reasonable, professional conversation with both Puunui and Master Cole. They apparently just aren't up for that the majority of the time. And Punnui in particular is sniffing around looking for anything to cast a dispersion on me or my instructor...who isn't even here. It is apparently 'to much work' for Punnui to simple email him directly but it isn't too much work to dig up old posts and video and make sarcastic threads and posts. Can we perhaps agree that his behavior is less than stellar? Can we agree that he just isn't going to 'play nice' with people that challenge his position on things?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Going from fourth geub to fourth dan certainly saved that guy a ton of cash. So much for the KKW trying to get paid.

Daniel

I don't know if it saved him any cash but it saved a lot of time that he might have actually had to spend training.

 

[troubleenuf]

Having done this also myself let me put in my lousy 2 cents worth.
going from blue belt to 4th Dan- a ton of learning- I was young full of energy, life and new to TKD. Everything was a learning experience and I was young and stupid and willing to take a chance.
6th to 7th Dan. Older, slower, full of injuries and still stupid enough to think I could keep up with the young pups and dumb enough to prove I could.
I think that about sums it up.

there is little difference in skill or knowledge between 6th or 7th

there is a HUGE difference between blue and 4th dan

if you were seriously asking that question, you have much to learn about martial arts....

 

[puunui]

So yes, I'd say that from basically zero to 4th Dan master in 1 1/2 years (at the most) is unethical and I'd say it was a good ole boy thing. I find that unethical. I find that racially motivated. That is my opinion.

I thought you were done responding to my posts? How is it racially motivated? What if a white american did the same thing for another white american, would that be racially motivated too?

What do you think about someone who has no experience in an art and goes from white belt to 4th Dan after a weekend seminar?

Now let's take a look at my 6th to 7th in a year. First off, I'm not obligted to go by KKW TIG standards.

Which comes to the point which I was hoping would come out of this discussion. You don't have to go by Kukkiwon standards that is true. But the reverse is true as well, that the Kukkiwon or the Kukkiwon instructors do not have to follow your standards or anyone else's standards either. No one has to follow anyone's standards but their own, which was my original point.

And let's be real clear on this point...many people in the KKW haven't had to abide by KKW TIG standards. Be it for a legitimate reason, or not. You cannot deny that.

Actually one of the things that the Kukkiwon does try to hold firm on is time in grade. So even if you apply for a skip dan, one of the requirements is that you have enough time in grade for all the ranks you are trying to skip. There are things that one can do to shorten the time requirements, winning gold at the Olympics for example, but those are the exception to the rule, and like I have said before, there are always exceptions, for exceptional people.

Secondly, I had at that time 35 years in the arts. I have taught over 1000 people. I have run schools. I have owned a school. I have had students who have gone on to use what I taught them. I have had students rise through the ranks and teach themselves. And since MSK KSD is a blend of the totality of my training and not just TKD, I could simply start my 'clock' when I first put on a 1st Dan and began teaching which is 1986. That is more than enough TIG.

Fair enough. You don't want anyone questioning your promotions, so why do you feel the need to criticize a world wide institution like the Kukkiwon on their standards? Why not follow the golden rule and do as you want to be done to you? Personally, I don't care what you rank is, it doesn't affect me in the least bit whether you are a 1st or 10th Dan. You promotions or lack of promotions has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever, just like that six year old's 1st poom has no effect on you. So who cares if that GM wanted to promote someone from blue belt to 4th Dan. If he wants to do that, that's his business. If he has a different standard than you or I, again, that is his business. What do you care? I know I don't.

So I would submit that there is a rather large difference. If someone doesn't want to see that as legitimate enough then that is fine. I'll go back to something that you've stated that we're in total agreement on;

I understand that you agree with respect to your own promotions. What I don't know yet is whether you agree with respect to what other people do. If you don't want anyone questioning your promotions, then why would you question others on their promotions?

 

[troubleenuf]

Actually I know of some that have went from non belt to black belt in weekend seminars in Kumdo and hapkido. Not what I would call ligit and in my mind it puts a very poor light on their legitimate training in TKD by doing it.

What do you think about someone who has no experience in an art and goes from white belt to 4th Dan after a weekend seminar?


I agree with this. But the thing is you cant hype that the Kukkiwon is all "it" when it allows things to go on that are not up to its "standards" and everyone knows it is happening. If the Kukkiwon is all that you say it is then the things that have been going on should not be happening. That is what has turned me off to them.


Which comes to the point which I was hoping would come out of this discussion. You don't have to go by Kukkiwon standards that is true. But the reverse is true as well, that the Kukkiwon or the Kukkiwon instructors do not have to follow your standards or anyone else's standards either. No one has to follow anyone's standards but their own, which was my original point.




Actually one of the things that the Kukkiwon does try to hold firm on is time in grade. So even if you apply for a skip dan, one of the requirements is that you have enough time in grade for all the ranks you are trying to skip. There are things that one can do to shorten the time requirements, winning gold at the Olympics for example, but those are the exception to the rule, and like I have said before, there are always exceptions, for exceptional people.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I thought you were done responding to my posts?

If you post a question, in a professional tone and without the agenda I will respond in like manner.

What if a white american did the same thing for another white american, would that be racially motivated too?

Yes it would. It would be a good ole boy promotion. Particularly if the GM hasn't taken part in, or seen the training. There is no justification for this amount of grade skipping. Not only does it cheat the individual of valuable learning for the sake of walking around as a 'master', it cheapens the art as a whole.

Yes, I suppose the GM can do whatever he wants. His school, his rules. That doesn't make it right, proper or wise to do.

What do you think about someone who has no experience in an art and goes from white belt to 4th Dan after a weekend seminar?

Do you really think that is acceptable? Would you consider him a 'master'? Seriously, would you?

Which comes to the point which I was hoping would come out of this discussion. You don't have to go by Kukkiwon standards that is true. But the reverse is true as well, that the Kukkiwon or the Kukkiwon instructors do not have to follow your standards or anyone else's standards either. No one has to follow anyone's standards but their own, which was my original point.

That's fine. How is that working out for them? Again, serious question.

 

[puunui]

I agree with this. But the thing is you cant hype that the Kukkiwon is all "it" when it allows things to go on that are not up to its "standards" and everyone knows it is happening. If the Kukkiwon is all that you say it is then the things that have been going on should not be happening. That is what has turned me off to them.

Some people would say that there are a lot of things wrong with the United States as a country. This or that or some other thing. But to me I love living in the US because it allows me the freedom to do the things that I want to do in an environment that I enjoy. I feel exactly the same way about the Kukkiwon and Kukki Taekwondo. Taekwondo has allowed me to meet and interact with people from around the world that I would otherwise not be in contact to. It has given me a reason to visit different parts of the country and the world for different events, places that I would never normally visit if it were not for Taekwondo. Taekwondo has also given me an outlet to express my creativity and natural curiosity in a positive manner. I also practice Hapkido and to tell you the truth I love Hapkido more than I do Taekwondo but it has not really given me the same sorts of opportunities that Taekwondo has. So maybe you are turned off by whatever, but not me. I am grateful that I have had the chance to grow in the manner that I have through it. I would be a different person if it weren't for Taekwondo and the Kukkiwon.

 

[puunui]

If you post a question, in a professional tone and without the agenda I will respond in like manner.

Or perhaps you can assume that my question is a professional one and take it from there.

Yes it would. It would be a good ole boy promotion.

What if someone said that is what your organization did, the committee promotes the head person who in turn promotes those that promoted him. Isn't that a good ole boy promotion as well? I don't know if you are caucasian, but assuming that you are, how would you respond if someone accused your past promotional practices as racist? I don't see any asian names in your dan registry, for example.

Particularly if the GM hasn't taken part in, or seen the training. There is no justification for this amount of grade skipping. Not only does it cheat the individual of valuable learning for the sake of walking around as a 'master', it cheapens the art as a whole.

And what art? Taekwondo? You and your organization changed the name to Kong Soo Do. So what is your stake in what the reputation of Taekwondo is or is not?

Yes, I suppose the GM can do whatever he wants. His school, his rules. That doesn't make it right, proper or wise to do.

If that is how you feel, then you should be prepared to have people make comments about your organization's promotional practices. In a lot of people's minds, one year between 6th and 7th Dan is not enough time in grade, no matter how much time has passed since your promotion to karate 1st Dan or what you think your justifications are.

That's fine. How is that working out for them? Again, serious question.

It's working out fine as far as I can tell. Again, 7 million poom and dan holders, they must be doing something right. Frankly I think that the US alone should have that many Kukkiwon poom and dan holders by this point.

And it is not that the Kukkiwon doesn't have standards. I can tell you that the Kukkiwon special test that was held at US Open a couple of years ago was a big problem for the Kukkiwon. A lot of people showed up and obviously did not know even the most basic material. There was a special poomsae seminar prior to the special test, and a whole bunch of people felt so poorly that they walked out and never even took their test. Of those that did take the test, many failed due to extremely poor technical ability. On top of that, USAT, who hosted the special seminar and test, kept a lot of the promotion fees and did not forward that to the Kukkiwon. Under the Kukkiwon promotion rules, a skip dan candidate is required to pay the promotion fee for all skipped ranks. So if you are going from 1st to 4th, you have to pay the promotion fee for 2nd, 3rd and 4th Dan. But USAT was submitting only the 4th Dan fee and keeping the rest. It was such a headache for the International Department that they swore never to do it again.

The Kukkiwon recognizes that many American Taekwondoin failed to be timely promoted like they should have been. What they didn't realize is that perhaps one of the reasons why American Taekwondoin weren't promoted was because they failed to continue with their training and studies, and had one year of experience 30 times, instead of 30 years of experience. They also were not prepared to deal with the extreme disrespect and hostility they received when the some of the skip dan promotion recommendations could not be honored. I do not mind saying that it put a very sour taste in the Kukkiwon's mouth to see that aspect of Taekwondo to the point where they are extremely reluctant to move forward in this direction again, which makes for even more bitterness, hostility and resentment.

I am beginning to think there is no solution for this. I think this is just the way it is at this point, which is why a growing number of my seniors as well as myself and Mastercole, feel like not helping anymore. For what? What is the point?

A lot of people really enjoy reading the things that I write because to them I represent a very traditional way of thinking. It gives them a point of reference in which to access where they are on the scale of tradition vs. non-tradition. When they see people who oppose my viewpoint, they see it as the struggle between tradition and non-tradition. I notice that the gap seems to be getting larger as time passes by. One of my juniors said it best I think when he said that I am a kind, generous person who he would trust with his life, the only challenge being that you have to negotiate through the thick wall of tradition to get there. My response was that I didn't build the thick wall of tradition; that the wall was always there, and it was there for good reason.

 

[troubleenuf]

And if you vote and pay taxes you get the right to ***** about what is wrong about the country. And if you have spent years sending applications and $$$ to the Kukkiwon then I expect that gives me the right to ***** about what is wrong with the Kukkiwon as well.

Some people would say that there are a lot of things wrong with the United States as a country. This or that or some other thing. But to me I love living in the US because it allows me the freedom to do the things that I want to do in an environment that I enjoy. I feel exactly the same way about the Kukkiwon and Kukki Taekwondo. Taekwondo has allowed me to meet and interact with people from around the world that I would otherwise not be in contact to. It has given me a reason to visit different parts of the country and the world for different events, places that I would never normally visit if it were not for Taekwondo. Taekwondo has also given me an outlet to express my creativity and natural curiosity in a positive manner. I also practice Hapkido and to tell you the truth I love Hapkido more than I do Taekwondo but it has not really given me the same sorts of opportunities that Taekwondo has. So maybe you are turned off by whatever, but not me. I am grateful that I have had the chance to grow in the manner that I have through it. I would be a different person if it weren't for Taekwondo and the Kukkiwon.