Yang Cheng Fu and Tung Ying Chieh

[Xue Sheng]

Yang Cheng Fu and Tung Ying Chieh Comparative Postures

http://www.taichichuan.dk/sammenlign1.htm

http://www.taichichuan.dk/sammenlign2.htm

http://www.taichichuan.dk/sammenlign3.htm

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Many thanks for posting these comparative postures. They are qwuite fascinating. There is hardly any difference between the two and any differences there are, are very minor indeed. How would you say your own postures differ from Yang Cheng Fu's?
Whenever I get someone coming to my classes who has done Tung style, I can see an immediate difference between what they are doing and what Traditional Yang teaches. Your comments would be valuable.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually my postures look a lot like Tung Hu Ling (Tung Fu Ling) which is more like Tung Ying Chieh than Yang Chengfu. If you look at the last comparison post I did the guy in white that isn't Yang Jun was Tung Fu Ling (Tung Ying Chieh's oldest son and lineage holder)

However I agree there really is not that much difference between the 2 Tung Ying Chieh and Yang Chengfu that is. There are some but I am not certain if that is not more related to physical size than actual approach.

I have seen pictures of Cheng fu in Single whip from when he was younger and it looks different from what is pictured when he is older. Younger he is much more extended. And the younger Chengfu looks very different from Tung. But Chengfu did refine the postures as he got older.

I have not analyzed all of the pictures as of yet but just looking at Single whip I do see some minor differences. Tung's back foot appears to be at a slight angle and his stance if turned more to the front where Chengfu's rear foot appears to be at a 90 degree angle from his body and he is more sideways. But again this could just be size differences. Per my Sifu Yang Chengfu was 300 pounds when he died and I am sure that would affect his postures. Also they are old pictures and the quality is not the best.

I will look through the pictures in greater detail over the next couple of days; I printed them all out for that very purpose. After I am done if you like I will let you know what I think.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Yes, Iwould be interested in your response. The two look so similar (Yang and Tung) that I would be interested in when the Tung postures started to vary from what Cheng-fu did. Cherng Fu's postures are exactly as the Yang family are teaching them today, so there has been very little variation in the family transmission. I also have to say, that I agree with your opinion that Tung style is close enough to Yang to be called a Yang style, unlike the other form that we both know about :shrug:

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Still looking at the comparison and I have some notes but I wont to take another good look at them before I post anything about them.

In the mean time I found these on the Dong Family Site, some are in the comparison photos

Yang Chengfu
http://www.ttopa.com/ycf.htm

Tung Ying-Chieh
http://www.ttopa.com/tyc.htm

Tung Hu Ling (Tung Fu Ling)
http://www.ttopa.com/thl.htm

 

[Xue Sheng]

What I see in these pictures is

The weight distribution seems a bit different in some, not all, of the postures for starters.

Yang Chengfu (YC) appears to have his weight less evenly distributed. More weight on either the front or rear leg. Where Tung Ying Chieh (TYC) appears to have a more centered weight distribution. This is not saying either is wrong, if you look at the position of the feet in some of the postures, particularly the back foot, you can see that they are using a different angle of force. YC has his foot at 90 degrees which gives him a rather straight line of force and I can imagine it would have been a whole lot of force. Where TYC has his foot at a 45 degree angle and his body is facing much more forward than YC. I know from experience that this is also a whole lot of force, but possibly not as much as you get from the 90 degree footing and more of a sideways facing stance (but to be honest I do not want to bee the test subject that finds out either). However I tend to feel that TYC is in better position should that application fail or if three is a need to move in a different direction due to the changes that occur rather rapidly in a fight. But admittedly it is possible that I am a bit prejudice here since my line comes from TYC and I never trained with the Yang family.

YC tends to have a higher stance in many of the postures where TYC tends to be lower. Almost as if TYC is doing a slightly smaller frame or, if I am brave enough to post this on an open forum, something like a Chen style, but not quite as low.(don’t tell my Sifu I said that)

YC hand positions appear to be higher in some postures than TYC and it appears that TYC might be in a better position as far as fighting goes, but that is debatable. I see my Sifu in postures much like this (TYC) and I have experienced the power he can emanate from them (fajing) and that is what I see here in TYC’s postures, relaxed and ready. It appears that YC is not as relaxed in some of the postures but I have NO doubt that has a lot to do with being close to 300 pounds, however I also have no doubt there is a whole lot of power there that I would not want to be on the receiving end of. As my Sifu would likely say TYC appears to be more centered, rounded and ready. But again this could be the effect of the body weight differences too.

I did discuss these pictures with my Sifu (although he had not seen them when we last talked) and his first comment was the YC was around 300 ponds when he died so you would see differences in the postures. Also you have to take into account that per TYC great grandson, Alex Dong, TYC did study some Hao style first and kept in contact with his Hao style Sifu after he became a student of YC. However he did not teach Hao style nor did my Sifu ever see TYC do any Hao style at all.

 

[marlon]

These seem to be similar differences found in CMC style. Is it possible that YCF taught differently than what we see in the photos? Or looked different in the postures when he wieghed less?
Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yang Chengfu in 1918
http://www.answers.com/topic/yang-ch-eng-fu-circa-1918-jpg

Yang Chengfu much later, I do not know the year
http://www.tai-chi-zentrum.de/images/yang/yang-chengfu-peitsche.jpg

Yes he did teach things differently as he progressed but not that much differently. Meaning he did not teach Chen Manching the style Cheng Manching later taught, but there were differences.

Actually the original style he was taught was supposedly fairly different from what he taught. He was taught by his father Jianhou who had already changed Yang style to a medium frame and Chengfu later changed it to a large frame. Both being different than his Grandfather Luchan had taught. But Luchan had developed Yang style from what he had learned which was Chen style and he changed it to get Yang style.

 

[marlon]

does any one know why Luchan changed it so much from the Chen style he learned...aside from the rumors that he wanted to hide the "true" art from the Manchurians?

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

does any one know why Luchan changed it so much from the Chen style he learned...aside from the rumors that he wanted to hide the "true" art from the Manchurians?

Respectfully,
marlon

He wanted his own family style for one thing. And I have read about other reasons but I cannot remember them I will have tolook them up, assuming I can still find them.

But the Yang style you see today is not the Yang style of Luchan.

 

[marlon]

i wonder what would have happened had Luchan been the one to make the qoute attributed to YCF

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

i wonder what would have happened had Luchan been the one to make the qoute attributed to YCF

marlon

Back then, he probably would have had a whole lot more challengers

I am not sure, it's a good question. But I am not sure that Chengfu actually said that either.

 

[marlon]

i do not think the question merits a new thread so../: Does anyone know what YCF died of? 50 is pretty young.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

i do not think the question merits a new thread so../: Does anyone know what YCF died of? 50 is pretty young.

Respectfully,
Marlon

1883 to 1936 and he was about 300 pounds when he died at 53 and I have read he died of natural causes, Yin dullness, a fungal infection, etc.

I am not sure of what he died of exactly (maybe someone else will come along with a verifiable reason) but I am pretty sure being just under or at 6 feet tall and weighing 300 pounds is not healthy so whatever else may or may not have done him in I am pretty sure the excess weight had something to do with it.