WTF Kukkiwon Dan holder to ATA Dojang?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by memory1179, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    He says explicitly that he has a 1st Dan. Of course, he says it's from the WTF (which never issued rank) so who really knows...
    I suspect from his OP that he's got a KKW 1st Dan, and hasn't trained in quite some time.
     
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  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    That's not quite what he said...

     
  3. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, it is.
     
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  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Ok, I'll try again.

    That's not only what he said.
     
  5. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    He says he has at least a first dan. By what you quoted, anyway.
     
  6. Shawchert

    Shawchert White Belt

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    ATA is an affiliate from ITF but even so WTF is not too much more different in how they learn their kicks and punches besides the rules in sparring and the types of kicks and punches, I believe WTF is more into kicking while ITF and ATA focus highly on blocks and punches. Of course each school is different in what they teach as well but I think the general thing about it is learning their forms and what they require for a testing and to be able to know it up to that belt might keep you at your dan status. I have had a 17 year hiatus but I was able to find and ITF school and he brought me back to my green belt level after my 3 day trial period. I have a friend in NC that goes to a school for WT and goes to another school for ITF and he was brought to the same belt level as the highest of his schools (I can't remember which one).

    So in my opinion if you can show that you still retained the knowledge of what you've learned before and show willingness to learn what the other school teaches I don't see why you can't keep your belt or even go to a slightly lower belt. Hopefully you can find a WT dojang around though it's always nice to stay in the tradition you are used to! *hopefullyy this is understandable... i think I rambled a little bit*
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    No, it's not. Which is why I said he seemed confused about what he has.

    Yeah. I know. I'm not the one confused. :)

    This is completely wrong. While it's true that things like the GTA were derived from the ITF, the ATA is totally different. One way you can tell is by the fact that ATA schools practice different forms.

    There is no such thing as WTF taekwondo. Never has been.
    The WT (it's not even called the WTF anymore) is purely a sports governing body. It has no curriculum, no schools, and awards no rank. It supervises competition. That is all.
     
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  8. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    This means he's at least first dan. He could be 2nd dan, 3rd dan, or higher. He hasn't explicitely said he's 1st dan.

    I'm mainly picking nits here.

    I'm going to disagree with this. For one, even though the name has changed from WTF to WT, it's still the same organization, and organizations tend to get called their old name. For example, one of the branches of the IT department has changed from "Information Assurance" to "Cybersecurity" about 5 years ago, and we still call them "IA". There's also the joke of the "ATM Machine" (as everyone calls them), which is the Automatic Teller Machine Machine if you actually follow the logic.

    If someone says WTF TKD, you know exactly what they're talking about, even if WT is the more correct term.

    With that said, there is a heavy integration between KKW and WT. They have a symbiotic relationship with each other. The KKW schools teach techniques and tactics to use in WT sparring, and the WT poomse competition rules focus on forms learned in the KKW curriculum.

    If the KKW decided all of a sudden, instead of the Taegeuks, we're going to do the Skribs pattern of forms (which, if I may use my completely unbiased opinion, would be by far the best forms ever used in any martial art), then the WT rules would change to accommodate the Skribs forms in addition to or instead of the Taegeuks.

    Alternatively, if WT changes their sparring rules, KKW schools adapt their sparring training to comply with the new rules, and to teach the strategies that open up as a result of the rule change.

    Similarly, if one organization just quit, the other would take a serious blow and need to regroup. If the KKW went away and all of the schools had to decide whether to re-register under ATA or ITF, create their own new organization, or run unaffiliated, then the WT would need to look at reaching out to the other organizations. It would be a significant shift in their target audience.

    And if the WT suddenly decided to stop governing tournaments, then the KKW schools would be training in vain for competitions that do not exist (at least as far as the competition-related training they do). The KKW would then need to govern sparring rules or leave the sparring curriculum up to the local masters, or would need to find another organization to run tournaments to complement the KKW curriculum.

    However you look at it, yes they are two different organizations, but they're two different organizations like the Navy and Marines are two different organizations. Technically separate, yet integrated and dependent on each other.
     
  9. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    No. WT Taekwondo is the equally INcorrect term.

    Other way 'round. The KKW curriculum doesn't teach what the WT wants. WT currently says "we judge KKW forms only" and goes from there.

    I have no opinion on the usefulness of the Skirbs patterns, but your assertion about how WT would respond to fundamental changes is unsupported (and unsupportable) by any actual evidence.

    Exactly. Which means there's no such thing as WT Taekwondo. I'm glad we can agree on this basic issue.
    Especially since WT makes it quite clear on their site that there is no such thing.

    Go ask a Marine what it's like to be in the Navy. When he corrects you, tell him it doesn't matter and see how well that works for you.
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    In the piece you quoted, I said "WT" not "WT Taekwondo". And how is either incorrect?

    That is what I said. " WT poomse competition rules focus on forms learned in the KKW curriculum." How does that not mean what you say? You have the forms learned in the KKW curriculum, and the WT poomse rules focus on those forms.

    That's...not what you just said in the previous quote. If they say "we judge KKW forms only" and those were KKW forms, then WT would respond to them.

    Okay, maybe I chose a bad example.

    My point is
    • If you say you're taking "WTF TKD" or "WT", then you're saying you're learning the KKW forms and WT sparring.
    • If you say you're taking "KKW TKD", then you're saying you're learning the KKW forms and WT sparring.

    Either way you say it, it ends up being the same thing. If I say I'm training KKW TKD, WTF TKD, WT, WT TKD, however I say it, people know what I mean. There is no question in any of those as to what I mean.

    And as to "WT" vs. "WT Taekwondo", that's because "WT" by itself could mean a lot of things: WT - Definition by AcronymFinder

    If you say "WT Taekwondo", it contextualizes what "WT" you're talking about. Where I work, people have both a password and PIN. If I say PIN, they go "is that the number or the password?" So I started saying "PIN Number", which is technically incorrect, but clues people in exactly what I mean.

    Now I do get every once in a while the smart aleck who will say "my Personal Identification Number Number?" But that happens far less than "number or password?" that we had before.
     
  11. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    If you don't understand it by now, you may never.

    I was imprecise. Mea culpa. What WT actually says is "we judge the taegeuk forms for colored belts, and Koryo, Keumgang [...] for Dan ranks".

    No, you chose a perfectly fine example. Not the same group means.... not the same group.

    If you say you're taking "WTF TKD" you're just wrong. Because there is no such thing. Show me a WTF rank certificate.
    If you're studying KKW TKD and all you're learning is Olympic style sparring, then I'm very sorry for you. You're missing out on about 75% of what the Art of TKD has to offer.
     
  12. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Every time I see this post in passing my first thought is it says.....

    What The F... Kukkiwon Dan holder to ATA Dojang?

    :D
     
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  13. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    That is actually one of the primary motivators behind changing the name to WT.
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    I could say the same to you.

    And why is that? Because the KKW does. If the KKW changed, why would WT poomse rules not change with them?

    So it has to have a rank certificate to exist? Why do WT tournaments use KKW dan ranks to set up their brackets?

    I never said KKW TKD only studies Olympic sparring. I said that's the sparring ruleset they primarily train for.

    If you're not sure what I mean when I post, please ask for clarification instead of assuming I'm wrong.
     
  15. Shawchert

    Shawchert White Belt

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    Just because the forms are different doesn't mean they did not come from ITF roots, from what I've read they changed their forms because they believed ITF did not start kicks early enough in their forms and wanted to change that, but still taught tkd traditionally in itf fashion.
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, in this case. In order to be a style of TKD, there are certain things you'd have to have. A curriculum. Ranks. Affiliated schools. WT has none of those things. Because it's not a style of TKD.

    Because there are no WT ranks, obviously. Duh.
    But you are.

    You might as well claim rank in combat Hula hoops. You wouldn't be any more wrong.
     
  17. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    You're technically right, but functionally "WT" can work. It doesn't have ranks or a curriculum.

    But anyone who says they take "WT", you know what they mean. They learn KKW forms and WT sparring. So for the sake of conversation, it works.
     
  18. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    I can't imagine that they do. They use current ranking to setup the brackets, but not the athletes' KKW Dan ranks. Most elite athletes are just a 1st Dan (or 1st Poom even) anyway.[/QUOTE]
     
  19. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    That's the first step. The next step is for you to stop being wrong.

    Words have meaning. They should be used properly. People studying KKW TKD learn KKW forms and KKW sparring.
    I think you should mumble dogface off to the banana patch now.
     
  20. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Words have meaning, and that's not limited to their definition. There are plenty of words that have a meaning outside of their literal definition, and because of that meaning, they are no longer politically correct to use.

    I would definitely argue that people studying KKW TKD are NOT studying KKW sparring. If they're not WT forms, they're not KKW sparring. The WT sets the rules that are used, and KKW schools train for those rules. As the rules change, the KKW schools change with it.

    That's what I'm getting at. There is a symbiotic relationship between the two organizations. The KKW curriculum drives the rules of one aspect of competition, and the rules of another aspect drive the KKW curriculum.

    You seem to be purposefully ignoring this relationship just to prove they're separate entities.123
     

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