Wong Shun Leung & Tan Sau

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KPM

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Guy and LFJ have been saying across several threads recently that Wong Shun Leung taught that the Tan Sau motion was only for training the elbow for the punch and is not to be used as a defensive technique. Now I'm starting to wonder if WSL really taught that! They say "a picture is worth 1000 words." A quick google image search turned up these:

http://practical-wingchun.com.au/media/422085_447610705332391_2014558204_n1-256x300.jpg

http://ewingchun.com/sites/default/...le-images/attilio-reale-wong-shun-leung-4.jpg

https://cranesproduction.net/images/WSL web.jpg
 

Danny T

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And...?
They have stated their opinion... you have stated yours.
Why can you not allow them to have their opinion? Why must you prove out or disprove their opinion?
Does their opinion change anything about how you view the tan sao? Do you think you are going to change their opinion?
I'm betting no.
Keep training your wing chun and they will continue to train theirs.
 
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KPM

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Very true Danny. But since they keep so adamantly repeating the same thing, I feel like someone ought to speak up and call them on it. It bothers me that they can so easily belittle other Wing Chun lineages. Doesn't it you? But you are right. I think I've said all I can say. I'm sure others here that have cared to follow along have formed their own opinions about what LFJ and Guy have been saying. I'm ready to let it drop. But I'm sure there will be some fall out from this post. It will be interesting to see what they will say to deny those photos of WSL and what they imply. I think the photos speak for themselves. I'm done arguing with them.
 

guy b.

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I'm not belittling anyone's lineage and I have mentioned no names. If you take offence at my having an opinion then I would say you are over sensitive.
 

geezer

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I'm done arguing with them.

Ha, I doubt that.

And as for those pictures. They can't be what WSL really taught. Doubtless they were just posed for the public, or beginners, or those outside the inner circle who weren't privy to WSL's abstract thinking. ....Or would that imply that WSL taught different things to different people? No, I think that was Yip Man who.... Oh heck. It's all too confusing. :confused: I'm done with this.

Let's talk about something else! ;)
 
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paitingman

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I was initially curious about all of this as well. Someone here kindly gave me some WSL background on the tan elbow training and concept. I was still a bit confused especially since I had seen some of these photos and other videos of WSL doing tan da and things like that.
Still that led me to the whole public vs private teaching explanation and I realized this was too deep of a rabbit hole for me, with this topic, on this forum.
I'll just have to keep doing what I do or actually pursue WSL method with someone to try to fully understand all this abstract-elbow-secret teaching-fake teachings stuff
 

LFJ

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They say "a picture is worth 1000 words."

Not worth 1000 hours of proper training!

If you prefer to learn from photos, that's up to you.


WSL laughed at the idea that biu-sau should be a finger jab too. This picture was for a magazine cover and looks like he's taking the piss out of mainstream Wing Chun, lol. His legit students would know.

You know he filmed an instructional video and intentionally filled it with many mistakes? It's common practice in TCMAs. Called "marking" for public consumption.


Not even taan-sau.
 

LFJ

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It bothers me that they can so easily belittle other Wing Chun lineages.

Calling it belittling means I'm just being nasty. All I've done is give my opinion with ample reason for what I believe. You find it upsetting but ignore the points I've made. I can't be blamed or held responsible for your emotions, bub. Either respond to my points or just get over it.
 
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KPM

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Just an additional note. I checked David Peterson's book "Look Beyond the Pointing Finger." There are several pictures through-out of David using Tan Da. But someone could argue that Peterson just never learned the "correct" understanding of the Tan Sau because he was "just" a seminar student. But on page 46 of the "expanded" edition are some photos of Wong Shun Leung himself using Tan Da. A photo taken during a seminar, with many people in attendance looking on. Not a magazine cover. So unless one is willing to propose that Wong Shun Leung cheated seminar attendees by willfully teaching them the wrong thing..........
 

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You still insist on learning from photos after you've shown with this thread that you don't even know what you're looking at... Why not go to a good WSLVT school and find out about it yourself?

Yes, WSL taught more common, mainstream ideas in some public seminars because there were attendees from all kinds of lineage backgrounds and time was limited with them. He also didn't want to embarrass other famous sifus who invited him out by showing them all that their ideas were wrong.

Yet, at one such seminar in Europe, one of his close students said to him privately; "Uh, this isn't what you've been teaching me." WSL didn't want to be the one to show the way, embarrassing the other sifu, and so he came back and told the student he could show them instead.

That student went on to reveal the method and attendees were immediately struck with grief at the realization that after many years, they didn't understand VT at all. A large migration from other lineages (which continues today) then began and quality VT took root in Europe where it now thrives... And taan isn't a block.
 

geezer

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....Yet, at one such seminar in Europe, one of his close students said to him privately; "Uh, this isn't what you've been teaching me." WSL didn't want to be the one to show the way, embarrassing the other sifu, and so he came back and told the student he could show them instead.

That student went on to reveal the method and attendees were immediately struck with grief at the realization that after many years, they didn't understand VT at all. A large migration from other lineages (which continues today) then began and quality VT took root in Europe where it now thrives...

As long as we're talking about pictures, I have a picture of the very event you describe. May the veils be lifted from our eyes!

http://vocations-syracuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/st-paul-conversion.jpg


OK, actually that's the conversion of St. Paul on the road to Damascus, but it sounds like pretty much the same thing. ;)
 

Danny T

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In my understanding of WC (whether others are the same or not) is that there are no blocks yet many of the structures can be used as a block, there are no specific usages only specific movements and structures. Apply based upon your spatial relationship with whatever you come in contact with. Strike the opponent; with something. How you do that may well be completely different from how I do so... And when may well be different from me. I am dedicated to striking the opponent but I am not dedicated to any specific strike. Tan is for dispersing/redirecting but the tan structure can be for trapping along the way as I strike as well as being the strike. The strike can be a finger, fist, wrist, forearm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder, head, upper torso, hip, thigh, knee, lower leg, foot. It can be a push, a pull, penetrating, light, hard, heavy, it can go forward, upward, downward, rearward, and in any possible angle within a sphere. Everyone has a different perspective. Learn the movements, learn the structures, test them. Use them. Be open to the possibility that something else can be better or not. Keep testing, keep testing, keep testing. If it works for you Great. But be aware how You apply what you know and understand may well be different from how I apply it.
 

Vajramusti

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As long as we're talking about pictures, I have a picture of the very event you describe. May the veils be lifted from our eyes!

http://vocations-syracuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/st-paul-conversion.jpg


OK, actually that's the conversion of St. Paul on the road to Damascus, but it sounds like pretty much the same thing. ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup and background music by Hank Williams Sr-I saw the light.
 

Vajramusti

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In my understanding of WC (whether others are the same or not) is that there are no blocks yet many of the structures can be used as a block, there are no specific usages only specific movements and structures. Apply based upon your spatial relationship with whatever you come in contact with. Strike the opponent; with something. How you do that may well be completely different from how I do so... And when may well be different from me. I am dedicated to striking the opponent but I am not dedicated to any specific strike. Tan is for dispersing/redirecting but the tan structure can be for trapping along the way as I strike as well as being the strike. The strike can be a finger, fist, wrist, forearm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder, head, upper torso, hip, thigh, knee, lower leg, foot. It can be a push, a pull, penetrating, light, hard, heavy, it can go forward, upward, downward, rearward, and in any possible angle within a sphere. Everyone has a different perspective. Learn the movements, learn the structures, test them. Use them. Be open to the possibility that something else can be better or not. Keep testing, keep testing, keep testing. If it works for you Great. But be aware how You apply what you know and understand may well be different from how I apply it.



-------------------
a good statement
 

geezer

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In my understanding of WC (whether others are the same or not) is that there are no blocks yet many of the structures can be used as a block, there are no specific usages only specific movements and structures.

For beginners, and perhaps in books directed at those with no personal experience in WC, it may be useful to name arm positions like tan or bong and give specific applications only for the sake of illustration. But in my understanding of WC there really is no tan, no bong, ...just your arm springing forward to strike. If the strike is obstructed and pressed back, the arm will bend, absorb, redirect and deflect the oncoming force. In the process, it bows like a bending spring becoming tan, jum, bong, tok, sideward palm...whatever, depending on the force it receives. Then, upon releasing the force, it springs back and strikes.

For this to work, there must be constant forward intent combined with relaxed and flexible joints. The body, stance and steps function the same way as the arms, pressing forward until obstructed or confronted with greater force, then compressing, turning, releasing, and then springing forward again. All of our training, the forms, drills, chi sau, sparring, and so on, are intended to develop this springy energy and enable us to apply it spontaneously. Ultimately there is no tan sau. No bong sau. Only a simple, direct way of applying energy and movement that is Wing Chun.

Sorry if that is a bit abstract for some, but it is the YM lineage WC I was exposed to.
 
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geezer

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"YP" lineage?

Sure. You never heard of Yi Pman?

OK --truth is that the plumber is busting through the concrete floor slab on the other side of the wall to fix the drain as I am trying to type. Guess I'm losing my concentration. :D

Dang... the vibration from the jackhammer keeps knocking junk off the bookshelves too. I just about got hit on the head with an old picture of my kids!

Anyway, I went back and edited that to "YM lineage". Actually it would be YM-LT-me. But I don't know how much it matters. 90% or more of what I understand is in agreement with a lot of other folks on this site. I don't sweat the trivia.
 
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LFJ

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But in my understanding of WC there really is no tan, no bong, ...just your arm springing forward to strike. If the strike is obstructed and pressed back, the arm will bend, absorb, redirect and deflect the oncoming force. In the process, it bows like a bending spring becoming tan, jum, bong, tok, sideward palm...whatever, depending on the force it receives. Then, upon releasing the force, it springs back and strikes.

Sounds like a theory devised by someone playing around in chi-sau.

Ever had it work like that in a real fight?
 

guy b.

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You still insist on learning from photos after you've shown with this thread that you don't even know what you're looking at... Why not go to a good WSLVT school and find out about it yourself?

Yes, WSL taught more common, mainstream ideas in some public seminars because there were attendees from all kinds of lineage backgrounds and time was limited with them. He also didn't want to embarrass other famous sifus who invited him out by showing them all that their ideas were wrong.

Yet, at one such seminar in Europe, one of his close students said to him privately; "Uh, this isn't what you've been teaching me." WSL didn't want to be the one to show the way, embarrassing the other sifu, and so he came back and told the student he could show them instead.

That student went on to reveal the method and attendees were immediately struck with grief at the realization that after many years, they didn't understand VT at all. A large migration from other lineages (which continues today) then began and quality VT took root in Europe where it now thrives... And taan isn't a block.

There are quite a few teachers still around who learned this seminar VT. Some in UK where I am based. It is hard work to move on from there.

Personally I was very happy when I discovered a method that actually works. Sadness and anger are common reactions though, as is denial.
 

geezer

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Sounds like a theory devised by someone playing around in chi-sau.

Ever had it work like that in a real fight?

Yep. For the other guy! :D


OK, I admit that I just said that to make you happy. Did it work? ;)
 
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