Women in Wing Chun

[Si-Je]

I see too many women in MMA and BJJ and I'm having a hard time understanding, why?
On myspace I see women posting pictures of their black eyes like it's cool and wonder how to attract more women to the art of Wing Chun. (maybe it's a U.S.A. thing) I find more women in Europe and such involved in WC/WT but, what is the DEAL with the women in the states?
I don't mean to come off wrong, but I'm wanting to increase enrollment of women in our WC class.
Just teaching a Women's self defense class isn't met with much interest I've found, like their all burnt out on the idea of taking a self defense class.
Being a woman myself, and not being to understand my own sex is also very frustrating. I don't usually meet many women that are studing any type of art much less Wing Chun. This is very perplexing to me, since WC is so well suited to a woman. It seems to me that women want to "learn how to fight like a man", and they feel that this is the only way to defeat a man. ACK!
I've been held by that train of thought for many years when I studied other arts, I guess I'm just trying to figure out what their attracted to in a martial art so I can show that part of WC sooner to get their interest.
I've posted a bit here and there on the women's site, but I only get responses from men. So, fine, now I'm asking the men. lol!

 

[geezer]

...what is the DEAL with the women in the states? I don't mean to come off wrong, but I'm wanting to increase enrollment of women in our WC class. Being a woman myself, and not being (able) to understand my own sex is also very frustrating. I don't usually meet many women that are studing any type of art much less Wing Chun. This is very perplexing to me, since WC is so well suited to a woman.t.

I've posted a bit here and there on the women's site, but I only get responses from men. So, fine, now I'm asking the men. lol!

Hey Si-Je, I think we all feel the same way about this. At the moment I'm training in a garage with the guys. But when we open a kwoon again, we will definately want to attract women...and Wing Chun/Tsun is perfect for them. Not to mention, if you can attract women, you'll definately get the guys to come in. But in the past when members of our group did teach publicly, it was really tough attracting women students. I thought it might be different for a female instructor. Apparently not. And it's not the facility either. My Si-dai used to run a really nicely equipped, clean, well-lit and "welcoming" kwoon... but he only had a couple of women students. Of course that was quite a while back, before the current fads of women's cardio-kick boxing and so forth. I'm coming to the conclusion that, in our culture, vanity and socializing are the biggest motivators. If you can convince the girls (and the guys) that WC/WT is cool, will make them look fit, and provide a good socializing environment, you might bring 'em in. Promising effective fighting and self-defense skills alone won't do it. Even my wife of 19 years will take aerobics, yoga, or pedal an exercycle at the gym (bo-ring), but won't touch WC/WT. Then again, considering her temper...maybe that's a good thing!

 

[LanJie]

I think that kung fu is almost not considered by people that do not have any knowledge or connection with it.

I have studied Kung fu for almost 15 years and I have known only about three women who were serious kung fu students.

I have seen a number of women demonstrate in the local Taekwondo and Budo schools.

Though I have in the last few years seen a number of talented young women perform from Calvin Chin's Hung Gar School (Great School).

I think I would try to stress the economy of Wing Chun as system of self defense. It is practical, has very few forms, and is very self-defense oriented.

I would like to see more women in general study kung fu systems but It may be that Chinese martial arts schools do not promote themselves as well as other Asian Martial arts.

I think If this changes more women will be kung fu practitioners.

P.S.
I know this part of Calvin Chin's web site is about training girls not women but It does a great job of selling kung fu to an audience that may have not considered it. Take a look at the link and read the information box that is titled Girl Power.

http://www.calvinchin.com/news.htm

 

[Kacey]

People in the US in general - both genders - have very little understanding of what martial arts are (beyond what they see in the movies) or that there are different types that are suited to different purposes - unless they are involved in a martial art themselves. You're not attracting women because they don't know why they should come. And while there are more women in MAs than ever before - it's still not something that's most girls' first choice, unless they know someone involved in it. To increase your student population, you're going to have to educate your potential student base as to why they should come - because they don't know.

 

[tellner]

I see too many women in MMA and BJJ and I'm having a hard time understanding, why?
On myspace I see women posting pictures of their black eyes like it's cool

The answer lies in the question.

Women do martial arts for the same reasons that men do even if the mix is a little different. A few more are there to learn self defense. Not so many are interested in picking up chicks

But "too many"?

Those two little words speak volumes about what you believe women should do and why they should do it. Me? I prefer to support anyone who has a goal and pursues it wholeheartedly. If women want to wrestle, box and compete in a hard core physical contest more power to them. They shouldn't be limited, especially by people who are uncomfortable seeing them push outside traditional limits.

Yes, some of them will get black eyes and broken noses and bruises and the occasional splinted arm. And they'll be proud of it because it proves that they aren't afraid to do what they have to to be what they want.

MMA are flavor of the week right now and will be for quite a while. BJJ is an important part of the sport. Fifty years ago it was Judo. Forty years ago it was Karate. Thirty years ago it was Kung Fu. Twenty years ago it was Tae Kwon Do. Some day it will be something else. Right now it's the Octagon and Muay Thai and submission wrestling. Every time the traditionalists have decreed that women don't really have a place. And yes, that includes Wing Chun in spite of its creation legend.

and wonder how to attract more women to the art of Wing Chun. (maybe it's a U.S.A. thing) I find more women in Europe and such involved in WC/WT but, what is the DEAL with the women in the states?
I don't mean to come off wrong, but I'm wanting to increase enrollment of women in our WC class.

What's the deal? It's simple. These women have their own agendas and priorities. Since they are not personally invested in your martial art they look for what they want. Some of them will end up in Wing Chun, but like the vast majority of people in martial arts or martial sports most will end up somewhere else. MA is a much more competitive business than it used to be. You can't show up with the Sacred Revealed Wisdom(tm) and expect people to line up and kiss your ring. The school and the student have to be the best match for one another.

You can try to find the people who are interested in what you are offering. You can trick people into believing that they want what you are selling, although you won't keep many students for long that way. You can adapt to fit their needs if your conscience and standards will allow it. What you can't do is blame the market for not wanting or needing your product.

Just teaching a Women's self defense class isn't met with much interest I've found, like their all burnt out on the idea of taking a self defense class.

Are you teaching a women's self defense class in order to teach women to defend themselves, or are you doing it to get them signed up for Wing Chun lessons? I think I asked this in another thread.

Being a woman myself, and not being to understand my own sex is also very frustrating. I don't usually meet many women that are studing any type of art much less Wing Chun. This is very perplexing to me, since WC is so well suited to a woman. It seems to me that women want to "learn how to fight like a man", and they feel that this is the only way to defeat a man. ACK!

Not every woman who takes martial arts does it for self defense, not even every women who says that's why she's doing it. And yes, martial arts is largely a man's world. There are always more men than women who are interested in learning to fight. I won't argue how much is biological and how much is social. Let's just say that it's a fact.

Women are involved in the hobby in much greater numbers than they ever were. And there are more schools which welcome them. Look at some of the recent threads where women have been forced out of traditional martial arts schools by teachers or other students who just don't take women seriously or think they should be there at all. Remember that it was much, much worse twenty years ago, let alone forty. I'm not that old, and I remember when women could expect to get the crap kicked out of them if they were even allowed in the door. The more "traditional" the school the worse it was. And the Chinese ones - yes even Wing Chun - were as bad as any.

Mixed Martial Arts doesn't have that kind of history. There are some gyms where the air is slippery with free-floating testosterone. But the sport has more of a place for women and accepts them as customers the same as everyone else.

Maybe what they're learning is "how to fight like a man". I'd argue that Wing Chun isn't that much better that way than most other MA. It's certainly got nothing on at least a dozen other systems I can mention off the top of my head. The point is to learn to fight at all. After that a person can argue that this method or that gym is a better fit. MMA is a recent evolution in a time that is more accepting of women in the martial arts. It doesn't have the history or baggage. It's not surprising that women from the same culture will likely find a home there.

I've been held by that train of thought for many years when I studied other arts, I guess I'm just trying to figure out what their attracted to in a martial art so I can show that part of WC sooner to get their interest.
I've posted a bit here and there on the women's site, but I only get responses from men. So, fine, now I'm asking the men. lol!

Well, you've got one now. A classic third- or fourth-wave feminist response from a man who studies a traditional martial art and taught women's self defense pretty successfully for a number or years. Make what you want of it.

 

[Empty Hands]

On myspace I see women posting pictures of their black eyes like it's cool...

Because it is cool. Duh.

 

[mook jong man]

Si-Je good luck to you if you can do it, but i think you will be facing an up hill battle.
I remember at our academy we had quite a lot of chinese women training but not many caucasian women so maybe it is a cultural thing.
I remember handing out flyers at a railway station with a senior instructor because we were opening up a branch nearby and one lady i tried to give a flyer to looked horrified and said she was a pacifist, i replied you might be but your attacker wont.
I am a second level instructor under Sifu Jim Fung and i can't even get my own wife to train, she would rather do billy blanks bootcamp dvds.
I remember at our academy they offered boxercise classes which was basically just glorified aerobics but that class had more women in it than the regular classes did.
Maybe this says that women are more afraid of putting on weight than they are of being attacked i don't know.
All i know is that the fitness industry seems to attract a hell of a lot more women than martial arts gyms do they must be doing something right and where doing something wrong.
You might try advertising it as Wing Chunnercise or something , but seriously why not try pushing the fitness aspect, get them to do this for 15 minutes or so low heel kick left and right 10 reps each leg called out by you, then 30 secs of chain punching, left and right medium heel kick 10 reps ,30 secs of chain punching , then left and right dai sau and punch 10 reps each side, then tell them to go down into a low horse stance and punch tell them this will tone their buttocks and legs and prevent cellulite and then followed by push ups from their knees, then more punching and kicking do this for about 15 to 20 mins.
We ended every class like this and we were doing it years before Tae Bo was even heard of.
I'll expect to be seeing some Wing Chunnercise dvd's on the department store shelves this christmas and don't forget my percentage of the profits. What about going to a local high school and asking if you can teach a couple of classes to the girls i was sent to do this once and the young girls seemed to really get into it.
But in all honesty i don't have an answer all i can say is hook em in first with the weight loss aspect then start adding hardcore techniques almost so that they are learning self defence with out realising it. Anyway good luck and tell us how you go.

 

[mook jong man]

Because it is cool. Duh.

I must be from a different planet if looking like somebodies battered wife is considered cool.
Maybe the time when one of my wing chun brothers accidentally elbow striked me in the mouth and my teeth were showing through the hole in my lip i could have put the photo on my space and been "cool" but they didn't have myspace in those days so i just went out drinking instead .

 

[KamonGuy2]

You must remember that some people are just nutters.
Hopefully it is only a couple of women who have posted these kind of photos (I haven't seen them), but I do know that there are women out there (in the UK we call them butch) who are just tough girls who enjoy pain and being in fights

I like pain and being in fights (not real fights - tournaments and the like, etc), but I wouldn't post my war wounds on the internet. That's just sad

But it is the same people who have horrific injuries and post them in magazines like 'Zoo' and 'Nuts' (sorry people who aren't in the UK)

Going back to the whole women thing - I have experienced this in every martial art I have done. Women tend to enjoy Tae-bo and boxercise but never take the next step

My (only) female student had a theory once. She said it related to savage times when humans were more like animals
Guys would fight over the women and the women wouldn't fight at all. Women were attracted to the scars and fighting prowess

I was hoping that we had evolved since then, but I still see it in clubs!! (Guys fighting over girls)

It is a shame as the women I know who take up wing chun do very well in it. If you are promoting the class for women a good trick is to do something like 'Bring a friend and pay half fees'. Women who bring mates down often stay

 

[matsu]

i work in a women orientated enviroment and i jsut asked them before posting back and actually mook hit the nail on the head.as did a few others posting...

its a fashion thing and sad but true WC is not commercial its not "fun" for keeping fit and it hasnt a trendy image....in most cases so they know little about it
and actaully most women,although would like to be able to defend themselves but arent actually prepared to go out and learn it.... again in the majority.

as mook said if you turned it into a fun trendy new chunercise and advertised it well enough you could develop a few hardcore into real wing chun but it is always going to be limited numbers.
pro rata- there are less caucasion men do WC than any other MA in my area due to the mainstream image and even the places that classes are available.

so your fighting a losing battle but with every one new take up your doing that person a great service so dont stop trying.,

matsu

 

[dungeonworks]

I am all for women having the freedom to choose fighting, by any name. Who am I to dictate???

Now, that being said, I am wholeheartedly against (against-meaning just myself) watching female combatatives and some women sports altogether. I would not spend a dime to watch any of it. Sorry ladies, but it simply boils down to interest, and in that I have none. It isn't because of chauvinism or bias as it is just plain "unapealing to me". It just doesn't get it for me. WNBA basketball, USA Female hockey team...ect, I would rather watch the NBA or NHL. When it comes to female MMA and boxing, well, it looks amateurish in my opinion is one of the most ridiculous sites ever to cross my eyes. Speaking as a father, son, and brother,I hate seeing women get beat on be it by a competitor in sports or a jealous drunk boyfriend in a bar parking lot.

Women in the Dojang/Kwoon/Dojo: I have yet to attend martial arts school that didn't have at least one woman nor have I been to any of the above where women were shunned. Heck, I can think of two schools in my area that are owned and ran by women. Even when I kickboxed, we had women. Come to think of it, I have never heard of women having these issues aside the occasional internet posting of it.

 

[Si-Je]

I like the idea of WC excersise. I've already got a cardio program designed, and have certification to teach cardio kickboxing. That was my origional intent to market the health benefits and get them into my cardio program to "trick" them in learning some of the moves of WC.
I got that idea when we were teaching two years ago and when asking women who were watching the class if they'd like to try a class for free, they would reply, "No thanks, I take cardio kickboxing. That should take care of it."
I was appalled. For women to use boxing style punches in the street make me cringe. My Dad's broken every knuckle in his hands fighting that way one time or another. And he's a tough dude! I would not recomment women use striking that is ment for the wrists to be wrapped up and large padded gloves to protect the knuckles.

I could teach a women's self defense class that disguises" the monotomy of drilling WC technique and put it in a cardio format, to make them feel more comfortable just drilling for long periods of time (and that is what needs to be done for them to come away with anything of value).

But I didn't want to be decietful to folks, so I've only used it as strickly a cardio program. They chain punch while kicking constantly, going from kick to kick, squats, the anti-grappling chain kicking (whatever it's called) right after they do sets of crunches to burnout, all to techno!
Women really like it.
There are no deflections in the cardio class, just constant chain punching, and I don't focus alot of time to make sure the chainpunching is totally correct, just want to keep them moving.

It seems that many have very little faith in a the concept of a woman actually defending herself completely in the street. Especially if her attacker has trained at some time how to fight in a MA.
Especially BJJ. No one thinks the anti-grappling works against the power of a good BJJ fighter.
This is all relative. I'm trying to instill a different mentality in women with a women's self defense class. If they don't do Dai sau just perfect before they leave my short seminar I'm not as bothered by the fact that when they leave that they have the mentality to fight.

No hesitation, with as little thought as possible. The dai sau might not be perfect, but if they land a strong Heel Kick then they've still diffused much of the power of a hand strike. I want to have a self defense class that is encourages the student to take the class again. So that women can return to when they can to refreash what they learned the first time. Be it a week later 6 months later.
Just keeping to a certian set of techniques that will cover them for most encounters. The more they come the better! If they only come once, then any teacher can only HOPE that they take with them technique and a mental concept that will help them one day.

Some people think that this can't be done. I'd still like to experiment with it and try it out. (But I guess that one would never know if what you teach a student works until they've HAD to use it. Same, same as when you teach a regular class.)

 

[Empty Hands]

I must be from a different planet if looking like somebodies battered wife is considered cool.

Any injury come upon honestly in the course of training is a badge of honor, not something to be ashamed of. Certainly not a sign of abuse. I applaud such women, as I applaud such men, for having the will to take punishment in the course of following their desires and their training.

It is sexist to look at any woman injured during training and seeing only someone's battered wife.

 

[Empty Hands]

When it comes to female MMA and boxing, well, it looks amateurish in my opinion is one of the most ridiculous sites ever to cross my eyes.

Try saying that to Irene (Tez)...but look out.

 

[Si-Je]

Here's the video I put on the women's board to see what women though of it.

I thought it was totally awesome! Others did not agree with me.

 

[Journeyman]

Wonder if advertising it as Eternal Spring instead of Wing Chun would attract women more.

 

[dungeonworks]

Try saying that to Irene (Tez)...but look out.

Maybe if I meant it to be insulting, but it is my opinion. Seriously, look at the cream of the crop lady boxers and compare them with the likes of DeLahoya, Mayweather, or heck, the skills of any club level boxer. Not to say there are no women fighters with skills nor that they are not tough! I am talking a straight side-by-side comparison. As I said, my intent is not to be insulting.

 

[Empty Hands]

Maybe if I meant it to be insulting, but it is my opinion.

Opinions can't be insulting? Hmmm....

 

[dungeonworks]

Any injury come upon honestly in the course of training is a badge of honor, not something to be ashamed of. Certainly not a sign of abuse. I applaud such women, as I applaud such men, for having the will to take punishment in the course of following their desires and their training.

It is sexist to look at any woman injured during training and seeing only someone's battered wife.

It would take a short stroll through the mall with the hypothetical injured woman to learn that the majority of the world is sexist. I can just see the looks a man would get walking next to a marked up female fighter...because it is not natural or normal for a person to see a battered looking woman. Many culture's laws and standards of etiquette throughout the years nurture this and it is not something that will be changed before the next 5,000 years.

 

[dungeonworks]

Opinions can't be insulting? Hmmm....

I gave reason for my opinion as well as noting I am not against women fighting at all...it just does not interest me in any way shape or form, so I don't watch it.

Is that insulting?