KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
Sorry I'm lost... When you started, they made you sign a contract saying that you wouldn't train at another school?
Who's your instructor and where can I find him/her?
Wing Chun vs Wing Tsun
- Thread starter bushidomartialarts
- Start date
Sorry I'm lost... When you started, they made you sign a contract saying that you wouldn't train at another school?
Who's your instructor and where can I find him/her?
Yes. When I started I was made to sign a contract. I didn't read the fine print because I was naive and believed that all Sifus we're of an honorable posture. I pretty much thought it was a liability waiver.
His name is Sifu Sonnenberg and he is located here .
The situation created by him reminds me of Cobra Kai Dojo from karate kid
HA!
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
bcbernam777 is an extremely intelligent person and he looks like he knows his stuff.
brocklee - I think you should go on every martial art forum in the world and name and shame this individual.
In Kamon we have a form you sign when you enter but this is for insurance. We have no right to stop you leaving to go to another dojo
If I were you I would go there every lesson and cause as much trouble as possible. If he wants to play paper games like that, beat him at his own game
If that doesn't work, give me a call
brocklee - I think you should go on every martial art forum in the world and name and shame this individual.
In Kamon we have a form you sign when you enter but this is for insurance. We have no right to stop you leaving to go to another dojo
If I were you I would go there every lesson and cause as much trouble as possible. If he wants to play paper games like that, beat him at his own game
If that doesn't work, give me a call
Pretty smart idea
He did tell me that I'm able to come train whenever I like. I should go there and do traditional WC and argue points against WT to make the students question their sifu's knowledge. There's a few students there that I think I can sway to my WC class. Cant beat the price either. Only $50 a month for my current WC training.I wish it we're the olden days, when respect mattered. Why would you want someone to pay for a class that your not teaching? No honor and not very rewarding. I don't know about going everyone on the net and bashing him. I don't think it will cause him to lose business and it wont do anything for me personally. The contract is pretty vague and there are gaps to exploit but it's not worth it. It would cost more $$ then its worth.
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
Yeah but it's more about not letting him get away with it. It means you will have lost out on WC training whilst you are contracted with him.
The more you post it on forums, the more people like myself hear about it and word will spread. I know passionate wing chunners who would go down to his class and destroy it from within.
Why? Because he has corrupted the system and given the art a bad name and messed with people's training. You won't get that time back
I am not saying that you shouldn't make a profit from classes, but you shouldn't force people to stay!!
The more you post it on forums, the more people like myself hear about it and word will spread. I know passionate wing chunners who would go down to his class and destroy it from within.
Why? Because he has corrupted the system and given the art a bad name and messed with people's training. You won't get that time back
I am not saying that you shouldn't make a profit from classes, but you shouldn't force people to stay!!
very true
Quote: monji1200
Traditional Wing Chun = William Cheung
Ving tsun = Moy Yat
Wing Tsun = Leung Ting
Wing Tzun = Emin Boztepe
Quote: bcbernam777:
"As Monji so eloquently pointed out, Wing Chun, Ving Tsun etc etc, all follow similar principles, ideals and basic energies but the application and interpretation of those principles differ from Lineage to Lineage, simply because, from the founders of those lineages down to the students who learn under them, interpret and apply those principles differently. Wing Chun is very much a human art and therefore will take on the charechteristics of differences between different people."
Seems plausable, but I don't think that traditional Wing Chun comes only
from William Cheung. Yip Man had several students, and as bcbernam777 stated that everyone's interpretation is different no matter what or who you learn from. I already have my own perceptions and ideas about WC that just about no one else I know share. And I'm sure these will change with time and training too.
Quote: Brocklee:
"Stance in WT is, what they like to call, 100/0 foot ratio which isn't accurate itself because your foot does touch the floor making it probably 97/3 or else you would be hopping around on one leg chasing the aggressor. WT has gone above and beyond in design and acts like a "turn-style" and pivits around the axis. WT seems to be more directed towards "when in doubt, chain punch out" and WC is more "maintain structure and explode when given the opportunity."
I agree with some of your viewpoint of WT stance, and the emphasis on chainpunching. I took a break from using Advanced stance or 100/0 for over a year simply because I didn't like it at all.
(an advantage when your hubbie teaches you). Every time I stepped inbetween the big guy's stance with advanced stance I ate shoulder and chest. Ticked me off bigtime. And hurt too!
I still won't use it that way. But the Way WT humbo steps (half circle step) around to the outside of an opponent's leg and stance, now, that IS groovy! Unbalances them, and gets my face out of their
centerline. I'm not sure if WC does this too, but I'm sure they do something similar.
Now used like that you don't want weight on your front leg. Your set up for a leg sweep. Used to take Japanese Ju-Jitsu, would throw you in a heartbeat.
Really I see the difference between WT and WC in a more simplified manner. WT works for Tall people (being that I'm not and WC works better for me in some instances) and WC for smaller folks.
Leung Ting's even pretty tall. And I think is shows in his style. Fung isn't and it definately shows in his approach.
Since I'm learning both at the same time I do get confused.
But whenever my instructor shows me new technique or has me drill and I have difficulty with it I ask, "are you showing me WT?" Usually he is.
For many of the techniques involve almost immediate manipulation of the opponent's head and neck, running straight into the opponent chian punching or whatever, which on a taller, heavier, and
larger opponent is very difficult for me. That's where alot of the WC comes in.
Pivoting, palm striking to the kidneys, kicking as you come into the attack.
Then I can play with the head throws, and such.
But by and large it's not totally effective for me to barrel straight into a stronger attacker. Running straight up their centerline. I tend to bounce off! lol! And theirs no point close lining myself on my opponent's arms, chest, and shoulders. These are the barriers in the way for me with taller people. I have to clear the arms, chest and shoulders (which are usually at my face level!) before I can chain punch these guys in the head. Hence why I so strongly recommend KICKING. And focus more
on getting out of my opponent's centerline by pivoting, stepping, etc so I can more effectively attack and am not constantly on the defense.
Plus, I tell people, "if it's not easy, your doing something wrong." Too much effort spent to execute a techique, you will pay dearly for in a conflict. My teacher is 6'4", WT suites him perfectly. It's when he teaches me that he has to revert to WC at times.
But I love the WT anti-grappling, which you won't learn anywhere elese as far as I know. And feel that is is a cruitial addition to WC/WT, for it gives a striking art a strong defense against wrestling, or grappling. (but enough on that, just my opinion. let's not start up with this discussion again, okay?)
Either of the styles are great, and have strengths and weaknesses for different people. I say learn all of it, just because I love it. Take what works best for you.
Anyways, the more I learn the more I think of WC/WT whatever in a totally different manner than what I've heard any of these guys teach. But I come from a totally different view point and perspective
than the instructors, masters, etc. I really desire to go back to the root of all of Wing Chun. At least in philosophy, concept, and principle.
Traditional Wing Chun = William Cheung
Ving tsun = Moy Yat
Wing Tsun = Leung Ting
Wing Tzun = Emin Boztepe
Quote: bcbernam777:
"As Monji so eloquently pointed out, Wing Chun, Ving Tsun etc etc, all follow similar principles, ideals and basic energies but the application and interpretation of those principles differ from Lineage to Lineage, simply because, from the founders of those lineages down to the students who learn under them, interpret and apply those principles differently. Wing Chun is very much a human art and therefore will take on the charechteristics of differences between different people."
Seems plausable, but I don't think that traditional Wing Chun comes only
from William Cheung. Yip Man had several students, and as bcbernam777 stated that everyone's interpretation is different no matter what or who you learn from. I already have my own perceptions and ideas about WC that just about no one else I know share. And I'm sure these will change with time and training too.
Quote: Brocklee:
"Stance in WT is, what they like to call, 100/0 foot ratio which isn't accurate itself because your foot does touch the floor making it probably 97/3 or else you would be hopping around on one leg chasing the aggressor. WT has gone above and beyond in design and acts like a "turn-style" and pivits around the axis. WT seems to be more directed towards "when in doubt, chain punch out" and WC is more "maintain structure and explode when given the opportunity."
I agree with some of your viewpoint of WT stance, and the emphasis on chainpunching. I took a break from using Advanced stance or 100/0 for over a year simply because I didn't like it at all.
(an advantage when your hubbie teaches you). Every time I stepped inbetween the big guy's stance with advanced stance I ate shoulder and chest. Ticked me off bigtime. And hurt too!
I still won't use it that way. But the Way WT humbo steps (half circle step) around to the outside of an opponent's leg and stance, now, that IS groovy! Unbalances them, and gets my face out of their
centerline. I'm not sure if WC does this too, but I'm sure they do something similar.
Now used like that you don't want weight on your front leg. Your set up for a leg sweep. Used to take Japanese Ju-Jitsu, would throw you in a heartbeat.
Really I see the difference between WT and WC in a more simplified manner. WT works for Tall people (being that I'm not and WC works better for me in some instances) and WC for smaller folks.
Leung Ting's even pretty tall. And I think is shows in his style. Fung isn't and it definately shows in his approach.
Since I'm learning both at the same time I do get confused.
But whenever my instructor shows me new technique or has me drill and I have difficulty with it I ask, "are you showing me WT?" Usually he is.
For many of the techniques involve almost immediate manipulation of the opponent's head and neck, running straight into the opponent chian punching or whatever, which on a taller, heavier, and
larger opponent is very difficult for me. That's where alot of the WC comes in.
Pivoting, palm striking to the kidneys, kicking as you come into the attack.
Then I can play with the head throws, and such.
But by and large it's not totally effective for me to barrel straight into a stronger attacker. Running straight up their centerline. I tend to bounce off! lol! And theirs no point close lining myself on my opponent's arms, chest, and shoulders. These are the barriers in the way for me with taller people. I have to clear the arms, chest and shoulders (which are usually at my face level!) before I can chain punch these guys in the head. Hence why I so strongly recommend KICKING. And focus more
on getting out of my opponent's centerline by pivoting, stepping, etc so I can more effectively attack and am not constantly on the defense.
Plus, I tell people, "if it's not easy, your doing something wrong." Too much effort spent to execute a techique, you will pay dearly for in a conflict. My teacher is 6'4", WT suites him perfectly. It's when he teaches me that he has to revert to WC at times.
But I love the WT anti-grappling, which you won't learn anywhere elese as far as I know. And feel that is is a cruitial addition to WC/WT, for it gives a striking art a strong defense against wrestling, or grappling. (but enough on that, just my opinion. let's not start up with this discussion again, okay?)
Either of the styles are great, and have strengths and weaknesses for different people. I say learn all of it, just because I love it. Take what works best for you.
Anyways, the more I learn the more I think of WC/WT whatever in a totally different manner than what I've heard any of these guys teach. But I come from a totally different view point and perspective
than the instructors, masters, etc. I really desire to go back to the root of all of Wing Chun. At least in philosophy, concept, and principle.
CheukMo
Orange Belt
????
profesormental
Brown Belt
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2006
- Messages
- 416
- Reaction score
- 6
Greetings.
I've not seen Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun taught the same (except if demanded by Organizations... and then there are variations) anywhere.
It all depends on the Instructor and the teaching skills, preferences, strategies, tactics, etc. that the instructor has.
Also, Teachers change how they teach every about 5 years to reflect their growth and insight on the training.
This does not mean that they teach different material, just the insight into the material and the stress given to certain aspects tends to change and refine with time.
All in all, I would go where you're most comfortable and able to experiment and train more as to make your abilities grow. If they have what you want, train there.
Hope this helps.
Juan M. Mercado
I've not seen Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun taught the same (except if demanded by Organizations... and then there are variations) anywhere.
It all depends on the Instructor and the teaching skills, preferences, strategies, tactics, etc. that the instructor has.
Also, Teachers change how they teach every about 5 years to reflect their growth and insight on the training.
This does not mean that they teach different material, just the insight into the material and the stress given to certain aspects tends to change and refine with time.
All in all, I would go where you're most comfortable and able to experiment and train more as to make your abilities grow. If they have what you want, train there.
Hope this helps.
Juan M. Mercado
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
Exceptional advice
bcbernam777
Brown Belt
jeff_hasbrouck
Green Belt
That particular interview can be found in Leung Ting's "Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun".
What I heard from my Si-gung's mouth, in his own words "I needed a spelling (that differed from everyone else's) and the "T-S-U-N" worked.
Remember, back in the late 1960's, he was the head of GGM Yip Man's "Ving Tsun Althletic Association". So he wanted to break off and start his own branch, which he did under the banner of "Leung Ting Wing Tsun Althetic Association".
Yeah Jeff, that's why the group I'm connected with went back to the old spelling "Ving Tsun" as used by Grandmaster Yip Man. Although we all trained under Sifu Leung Ting in his "WT"system, we have not been associated with him for a long time, so we prefer to use the generic name of our lineage as spelled by Si-gung Yip.
jeff_hasbrouck
Green Belt
Ya I broke from the IWTA over some seemingly simple problems. There were accusations that I was teaching "advanced" material to a SG 5... I taught him how to defend an elbow (kup-jarn) and during the class (in the guy's school who tattle-tailed on me) I did biu-tze reaction to deflect the elbow and all of the sudden I was a technique stealer and a rebel lol.
I revieved a call the next morning from my then sifu saying that I would kicked out if I ever did it again, and I futilely tried to explain that I hadn't commited any wrong-doing, but I digress.
That was about a year before the CWT guys disbanded taking some of my texas contemperaries with them. We have folks from cali, to texas, to new york who have this grand alliance and it's just a wonderful group of people. Im very happy to free of the politics and to just have people who want to see WT grow
All the best,
Jeff
It's really sad - I don't know why, or how, some of these things have happened in the WT organization. I train in the EEWTO, so directly related to Leung Ting's IWTA, and there is a very open approach. We have the same grading structure, etc, but in classes it is not uncommon for student grades to be working on drills and lat sao that incorporate some Biu Tze level material.
And really, it shouldn't matter too much (the sharing of little nuggets of gold. Heck, the second Chi Sao section has a double-grab and pull+pivot that is from the third form, and that Chi Sao section (2nd) is taught, of course, to student grades.
Recently our Sifu had a seminar on the long pole, and people of various grades could attend (including some higher-ranked student grades). I couldn't make it, sadly, but I asked the question of a friend: is it normal for people at various levels to start training the pole? I was told that our Sifu had been asked this before, and his response was something along the lines of: "It takes many, many, many years to become skilled with the pole - so it doesn't hurt to begin basic pole training/exercises early."
I'm not sure why exactly, but something seems to have gone wrong with the WT org in the US. There are some very experienced guys there, and yet we see how things have become so 'splintered'. :-(
And really, it shouldn't matter too much (the sharing of little nuggets of gold
. Heck, the second Chi Sao section has a double-grab and pull+pivot that is from the third form, and that Chi Sao section (2nd) is taught, of course, to student grades.Recently our Sifu had a seminar on the long pole, and people of various grades could attend (including some higher-ranked student grades). I couldn't make it, sadly, but I asked the question of a friend: is it normal for people at various levels to start training the pole? I was told that our Sifu had been asked this before, and his response was something along the lines of: "It takes many, many, many years to become skilled with the pole - so it doesn't hurt to begin basic pole training/exercises early."
I'm not sure why exactly, but something seems to have gone wrong with the WT org in the US. There are some very experienced guys there, and yet we see how things have become so 'splintered'. :-(
Ediaan
Yellow Belt
One of the biggest differences between WT and WC is footwork. In WT one foot is turned on exactly the middle of the sole, whereas in WC both the feet are pivoted on the heels when turning. The forms are a little different, the same basis and principles with slight differences. Also, I've heard some WC schools say that WT is a little too aggressive.
As for lineage, WC is more centred towards the traditional style whereas WT has used eskrima, knife applications and some grappling techniques.
As for lineage, WC is more centred towards the traditional style whereas WT has used eskrima, knife applications and some grappling techniques.
Be careful not to generalize. WC is varied, depending on whose WC you are talking about even sticking to just the Yip Man lineage. Some branches are geared toward competitive fighting (Alan Orr's guys, for example) some are not. Some turn on the balls of the feet, some on the heels, and some on the center of the foot like WT. Some weight their turning stances 50-50, some 70-30, some 90-10, or even 100-0. And some are far less traditional and more ecclectic than WT, even bordering on being JKD like.
LT chose the spelling WT to distinguish his own personal approach. But his approach is pretty traditional, reflecting mainly what he learned from Leung Sheung and Yip man. Check out how the Hong Kong branch trains. Other WT groups do things quite differently, especially the "rebels". Check out what Emin Boztepe, Sifu Fernandez, Victor Gutierrez, Sergio Iadarola, and others have done with WT. It's fascinating.
WingChunIan
Blue Belt
- Joined
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Unfortunately this is fairly common in certain organisations. There is a school not far from my own that has this approach. One of my students went there first (silly boy) and was allowed to watch a class and then told that to join he would have to pay £200 and sign a contract, I've had others come to me asking if they can train but asking me not to include them in photos etc because they are still under contract and this particular organisation has a reputation for threatening legal action. It seems to come with the larger organisations that operate on almost a franchise basis
Ediaan
Yellow Belt
Agreed, some WC lineages are very different, and most WT branches are different. Our specific WT branch from he Yip Man - Leung Ting lineage have even implemented some of the European (Keith Kernspecht) as well as EBMAS principles.
I must say that Eming Boztepe has exceptional groundwork and Grand Master Kernspecht has developed the art to a point where, at his aging years, he is still very formidable. I believe he was quite a body builder in his younger days.
