William Cheung, Leung Ting

[Brother John]

I am not a Wing Chun practitioner, but appreciate the styles practicallity and the skills of it's practitioners.... I just want you to know that I don't intend to stir ill-will by posting this question, it's spawned by curiousity and my desire to fill my gaps of ignorance.

Several years ago I recall reading several articles in Black Belt Magazine and Inside Kung-Fu Magazine in which it was being debated as to who was Grandmaster Yip Man's legitamit successor... William Cheung or Leung Ting. (hope I'm not mispelling either)

What ever came of this debate??

ALSO: Why does Leung Ting use the spelling Ving Tsun?
is it as simple as the difference between Madarin and Cantonese or what???

Thanks for helping!
Your Brother
John

 

[Phil Elmore]

I'm not well-versed in the history enough to be able to say who's the "legitimate successor" or not, but I can tell you what I've learned in the research I've done so far, having just started Wing Chun in the Cheung lineage.

Here I'm grossly overgeneralizing, but the Cheung people strike me as friendly and pleasant, while the Leung Ting people have, at least on and off, a reputation for being unpleasant. I don't know any so I'm just repeating what I've heard; I'm not saying it's true.

I honestly don't know why the difference in spelling.

 

[Hansson]

The difference in spelling is about registered trademarks. I guess correct pinyin is Wing Chun. Other variants I've seen is Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun, Ving Tchun.

 

[tmanifold]

Most of the problems with the Leung Ting group came in the form of Emin Boztepe. He is pretty much a thug. He jumped Williem Chueng at a demo. He has since split with Leung Ting's org.

The main difference between the two is that Williem Chueng teaches what he calls Tradional Wing Chun. The main difference is in the concept of the center line.

TWC teaches(if I remember correctly) the the concept of the center line is totally in regards to your center line. VT, on the other hand, attacks the opponents centerline. Essentially, this means the TWC has more movement, especially off the line of attack rather than going through the attack that common with the VT group.

Now this is just what I have seen in demo's and read. So it is probably more in depth than this but this is what I have seen.

Tony

 

[DireWolf]

Several years ago I recall reading several articles in Black Belt Magazine and Inside Kung-Fu Magazine in which it was being debated as to who was Grandmaster Yip Man's legitamit successor... William Cheung or Leung Ting. (hope I'm not mispelling either)

Ask just about any of the original 'closed door' students and you will get a different opinion on who is the legitimate successor. Some are more fanatical than others. I'm inclined to believe the ones that don't jump around waving their arms and yelling "Look at me everybody! I have the only true Wing Chun!".

It seems to me that the ones that make the most noise have $$$ in mind more than anything else to offer.

Oh, I'm Tsui Sheng Ting lineage through Jim Fung.

 

[Angus]

Originally posted by tmanifold

Most of the problems with the Leung Ting group came in the form of Emin Boztepe. He is pretty much a thug. He jumped Williem Chueng at a demo. He has since split with Leung Ting's org.

I've heard about that incident, but what exactly happened when he jumped him? The only details I've heard so far are "he jumped him", and nobody seems to know more. Would you be able to fill me in, please?

I've heard a lot about Emin Boztepe challenging a lot of big names, and not only those in WC/VT. It's a shame, really, because it gave both him and his former and current organization a bad name, in my opinion. He may be very good, but I don't agree with his actions.

 

[theneuhauser]

on a similar note, here in arizona, leung ting's 4th level student is Keith Sonnenberg. Does anyone know anything about mr. sonnenberg?

 

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by Angus

I've heard about that incident, but what exactly happened when he jumped him? The only details I've heard so far are "he jumped him", and nobody seems to know more. Would you be able to fill me in, please?

I've heard a lot about Emin Boztepe challenging a lot of big names, and not only those in WC/VT. It's a shame, really, because it gave both him and his former and current organization a bad name, in my opinion. He may be very good, but I don't agree with his actions.

Boztepe came up to Chueng at a demo and challenged him. Chueng said no because he was not of his rank. I guess that is a chinese custom regarding challenges. Boztepe persisted so chueng said, sure after the demo.

Chueng changed in to his kung fu slippers then procceeded with the demo. During the demo Emin charged him and after a couple seconds Chueng slipped/ was takendown and Boztepe tried to punch him. Chueng parries almost all of them. That was where the video ended, so I don't know any more than that.

Tony

 

[Kong]

I saw that video with Cheung and Emin rolling around on the floor, not very impressive. But I guess the circumstances would have alot to do with the quality of the fight, I mean if Cheung really got jumped from behind while giving his demo, very foul play indeed. Also the video clip (I assume we`ve seen the same one from the internet) ends abruptly, and you don`t really see how it ends. Anybody knows if there ever was, or is going to be, a "rematch" considering the amount of controversy this footage started and the fact a challenge was issued in the first place?

 

[Kong]

I've heard a lot about Emin Boztepe challenging a lot of big names, and not only those in WC/VT.

Has anything ever come out of these challenges? If that Cheung video is representative of his skill level, it would seem to me like he could run into some serious trouble going around issuing challenges left and right!

 

[jongman]

Personally I don't like to go in to all this WC vs WT/VT subject. To me it is all wing chun and leave it at that. I have been to Hong Kong and seen LT's school and it looked much the same as our 'traditional' wing chun anyway. I also visited Tsui Sheng Tin's house where he was teaching back then and his students were quite good too. Everyone has there own wing chun and I guess the ones who want to create a large following call themselves 'closed door' disciples for this reason. I tend to believe that William Cheung learnt his combat wing chun on the mainland from a master of 'Hung suen' wing chun but I doubt hem will talk about it as he would like to keep this to himself. In the book 'Complete Wing Chun' Sifu Garret Gee's hung suen looks very much the same as traditional wing chun with the high bong sao elbow and the stances etc. but will we ever know the real background of anybody?
the main difference I can see between WC and VT is the footwork and stepping. As far as centerline/central line goes that's another matter. There are differences in the chum kil and bil jee forms as well as the dummy sets but I think the principles of both systems are the same.


http://redjunk.net

 

[theneuhauser]

whos idea was it to trademark a spelling for a translated term anyways?
seems ridiculous to me.

 

[tmanifold]

VT WC TWC it is all good. The problem was mainly with Boztepe and his attitude. Most of the main Org are run by Yip Man's senior students (assuming the YIP Man lineage). I imagine they are all good.

Tony

 

[celtic bhoy]

As I'm lead to believe, years ago there was insults flying between William Cheung and Leung Ting. I believe it was an argument over lineage and autheticity. I also believe Keith Kernspecht may have been involved somewhere, on the side of Leung Ting.

Anyway it is believed that Emin Boztepe decided to defend Leung Ting's honour (?) by jumping William Cheung at a demo.

This question of honour has since proved laughable, as only last month Boztepe was in a national martial arts magazine rubbishing Kernspecht's and Leung Ting's morals and methods.

 

[Cthulhu]

From what I recall when this was brought up on RMA years ago...

William Cheung was doing a demo/seminar in Germany. Apparently, VT has a large following in Germany, so a lot of Leung Ting's people were there. At some point during the demo, Emin Boztepe (backed by some of his cronies) challenged Cheung. Cheung told him he didn't have to answer his challenge, since Cheung was Boztepe's senior (in a lot of traditional Chinese systems, juniors never challenge seniors), but he would oblige him after his obligations with the demo/seminar were done. Boztepe didn't like that answer and jumped him. They both went to the ground, with Boztepe in a sort of half-assed mount position over Cheung. Many punches were thrown. Boztepe and his cronies ran off. Cheung got up, finished the demo/seminar, and did a TV interview afterwards, apparently none the worse for wear.

I saw a very poor quality video clip some time back, which I can no longer locate. The whole incident was very quick. From what I hear, there were two versions of that video clip going around: an unedited version, and a version on one of Boztepe's training videos edited to show him in control the entire time.

Bear in mind, I'm going on my horrible memory from stuff I saw and read about five years ago.

The whole thing is ridiculous, sparked by overblown egos on both sides, and students of Ting and Cheung who have nothing better to do than take part in childish 'my dad can beat up your dad' type arguments.

Cthulhu

 

[Brother John]

The whole thing is ridiculous, sparked by overblown egos on both sides, and students of Ting and Cheung who have nothing better to do than take part in childish 'my dad can beat up your dad' type arguments.

That says it so well.

Ridiculous
overblown egos
Nothing better to do...

Those three things have spoild many a good name in time.

Your Brother
John

 

[SRyuFighter]

I believe that we discussed this on http://www.bulshido.us a few weeks ago. You can go there and do a search. There is a member there that knew a lot about the subject. I believe his name was kungfoolss.

 

[Phil Elmore]

The entity calling itself "Kungfoolss" is quite possibly one of the most ignorant creatures ever to nibble at the fringes of the online martial arts community. He certainly is not someone to whom you should go for information on any topic relating to the martial arts. I wouldn't even consider him a useful source of information on his chosen art (Jerry Petersen's S.C.A.R.S.), as he almost never answers direct questions with anything but haughty pretense and intellectual evasions.

http://www.philelmore.com/hate/kungfoolss.htm

 

[yilisifu]

As far as the legitimate hier to the art, I believe it went to Yip Man's eldest son (Leung Ting and Wm. Cheung seem to have forgotten about this traditional line of succession). I believe he is now deceased (having taught very few people) and his brother inherited the art (legitimately), but he won't teach.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Lol well kungfoolss did post something about that a few weeks ago. Just trying to help out.