Will Wonders never cease?

[Xue Sheng]

One more thing off post.

I have read a lot of comparisons of CMC and Yang that are both good and bad, but my interest has been peaked so here is what I'm going to do.

As soon as I finish the reread of CZL's book I am going to sit down with Yang styles treatises and essences and CMC book the 13 treatises and compare them on that basis and that basis only, not form or posture and after I am done I will post what I think about the whole thing. That is if people are interested.

Now please back to Shou hou if there is anymore to say about it beyond the best comment and comparison I have heard so far from Flying Crane

Lazarus rises from the dead.

 

[marlon]

:shrug: But before they do, would they please tell me in which part of their form they practise Chou Si Gong (or Chou Si Jin if you prefer).

Very best wishes[/quote]


Eastwinds,
as i am learning the 108 form from a taiji student and through readings could you explain to me (or anyone) where and how is thios silk pulling practiced. I study the 10 essences often and i love the writings of cmc (which i find closer in spirit to chen style than what is being said by the yang family these days). Cultivation of internal power is foremost in his writings and i imagine in his teachings. But this is the first i have heard of silk pulling...anywhere

respectfully,
marlon

 

[bigfootsquatch]

I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]JerryKarin[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]posted 04-19-2007 12:04 PM [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]I believe that at the time the family tree was originally published on the site, Yang Zhenduo's branch of the family had lost contact with Yang Shaohou's descendants. Then a fellow popped up in Tai Chi magazine claiming to be a descendant of Yang Shaohou, so Yang Zhenduo did some research to determine if the claim was true and as a result got back in touch with the YSH branch.[/FONT]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this will lead to greater things, such as the shou hou branch coming out and wanting to make their version public. Maybe it is just so no one can claim kinship, only time will tell.

 

[East Winds]

marlon,

This is not the correct thread to discuss this particular aspect. I will PM you.

Very best wishes

 

[oxy]

I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]JerryKarin[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]posted 04-19-2007 12:04 PM [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]I believe that at the time the family tree was originally published on the site, Yang Zhenduo's branch of the family had lost contact with Yang Shaohou's descendants. Then a fellow popped up in Tai Chi magazine claiming to be a descendant of Yang Shaohou, so Yang Zhenduo did some research to determine if the claim was true and as a result got back in touch with the YSH branch.[/FONT]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this will lead to greater things, such as the shou hou branch coming out and wanting to make their version public. Maybe it is just so no one can claim kinship, only time will tell.

Good stuff.

Hanlon's Razor and all that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]JerryKarin[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]posted 04-19-2007 12:04 PM [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]I believe that at the time the family tree was originally published on the site, Yang Zhenduo's branch of the family had lost contact with Yang Shaohou's descendants. Then a fellow popped up in Tai Chi magazine claiming to be a descendant of Yang Shaohou, so Yang Zhenduo did some research to determine if the claim was true and as a result got back in touch with the YSH branch.[/FONT]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this will lead to greater things, such as the shou hou branch coming out and wanting to make their version public. Maybe it is just so no one can claim kinship, only time will tell.

Actually this is believable, in China during the Cultural Revolution it could have easily happened.

Thank you and please keep me posted.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm still waiting on a reply from some emails I sent to various officers listed on the Yang family site. I did get this from the adminstrator of the discussion board under "Questions for Yang Family."

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]JerryKarin[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Administrator [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]posted 04-19-2007 12:04 PM [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]I believe that at the time the family tree was originally published on the site, Yang Zhenduo's branch of the family had lost contact with Yang Shaohou's descendants. Then a fellow popped up in Tai Chi magazine claiming to be a descendant of Yang Shaohou, so Yang Zhenduo did some research to determine if the claim was true and as a result got back in touch with the YSH branch.[/FONT]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this will lead to greater things, such as the shou hou branch coming out and wanting to make their version public. Maybe it is just so no one can claim kinship, only time will tell.

OK Not so believable anymore.

A recent interesting conversation leads me to another question

If what was said on the Yang family site is true then how come my Sifu knew Shou Hou had family there in the 50s and he still knows they’re there today?

 

[bigfootsquatch]

An email I received about the new lineage: Just so you will know, since you generously offered to help with this. I havegiven the basic information to several very knowledgeable people in China. TwoPhD level people (& their staff) are professional martial arts researchers. Another is an extremely knowledgeable amateur expert on many aspects of thehistory and the current scene in martial arts in China. The general agreement is the claim is likely fraudulent. Some believe it may bean attempt to add weight to the current family's claim re Chengfu's receivedtransmission (he received an incomplete transmission having ran away from hometo escape the severity of the training, including beatings from his father),until after the death of his father. It is notable nothing has been mentionedon the chatlist or anywhere else, except on the mainland, about Zhenji's recentdeath. In fact, he was the 'gatekeeper' of the family's art after the death ofZhenming.The two professional history researchers at the U advised that they checked allmagazines they had and could not find anything by anyone claiming to beShaohou's descendant. Of course, it's still possible it's out there somewhere -the truth is there has been a recent explosion in m.a. mags in China. But,little by little,it begins to appear like a mysterious, unfounded but somehow aconvenient claim. The webmaster was specific about Tai Chi magazine. I askedSmalheiser, the owner & publisher, and he has not done any such article. Nothing has been found in a Chinese publication on this. People very familiarwith current topics in m.a. in China have not heard of it. It begins to lookquite suspicious. Week after next there is a gathering of the Yang family fifth generation peopleincluding my fourth generation master. Maybe something will come out of that.Thanks again & best of luck.This is all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

An email I received about the new lineage: Just so you will know, since you generously offered to help with this. I havegiven the basic information to several very knowledgeable people in China. TwoPhD level people (& their staff) are professional martial arts researchers. Another is an extremely knowledgeable amateur expert on many aspects of thehistory and the current scene in martial arts in China. The general agreement is the claim is likely fraudulent. Some believe it may bean attempt to add weight to the current family's claim re Chengfu's receivedtransmission (he received an incomplete transmission having ran away from hometo escape the severity of the training, including beatings from his father),until after the death of his father. It is notable nothing has been mentionedon the chatlist or anywhere else, except on the mainland, about Zhenji's recentdeath. In fact, he was the 'gatekeeper' of the family's art after the death ofZhenming.The two professional history researchers at the U advised that they checked allmagazines they had and could not find anything by anyone claiming to beShaohou's descendant. Of course, it's still possible it's out there somewhere -the truth is there has been a recent explosion in m.a. mags in China. But,little by little,it begins to appear like a mysterious, unfounded but somehow aconvenient claim. The webmaster was specific about Tai Chi magazine. I askedSmalheiser, the owner & publisher, and he has not done any such article. Nothing has been found in a Chinese publication on this. People very familiarwith current topics in m.a. in China have not heard of it. It begins to lookquite suspicious. Week after next there is a gathering of the Yang family fifth generation peopleincluding my fourth generation master. Maybe something will come out of that.Thanks again & best of luck.This is all.

And yet my sifu knew of the existance of Shouhou family in Hong Kong in the 50s. My sifu is also a doctor and very well trained in Yang Taiji by Tung Ying Chieh (student of Chengfu) in Hong Kong where he grew up. He also did say that Chengfu did not really take taiji seriously until after his father's death. Chengfu was trained, he just would not practice.

 

[Nobody]

I have had that question for some time what really happened right before the cultural revolution happened in china cause all of the sudden during this area of time there seems to be a time when all these books information an thing was being destroyed so it leaves out what happened to certain people an why. I have always thought the cultural revolution was meaning there culture had gotten so heavy with controls that this caused the lose of information an poor book keeping at this time. This from a country that has records of aqueducts that are more advanced than anything the world would see for 500 year about.

The thing that can be found out i would think cause they have the actual records i assume of the travel of people in China when you travel from town to town even in the days preceding the cultural revolution they did this you first go to your local magistrate.

I don't get why this continues to happen mainly in martial arts do to the fact that in china they keep still to this day a list of people that are teaching martial arts an family list of people involved in something similar to this.

What i mean Cultural Revolution in China it seems there was less blood shed than would have been in America that still gets me when there was so much document destroying going on. I understand that the weight of all the land control was what was fought over still don't get why they would lose all these thing related to family an inheritance!?

This is what i have had the hardest time understanding cause they have a written knowledge of Hsing Yi an Tiger systems but all the other system end up losing there family list an heritage at the same time as the cultural revolution. Why?

This thing is common to all system oddly but Hsing Yi an Tiger system cause there is so much info left on these to system again Why?

I know this seem like i went off topic but i think it deals directly with what was happening at the time in Taiji. 1850 to the 1900.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have had that question for some time what really happened right before the cultural revolution happened in china cause all of the sudden during this area of time there seems to be a time when all these books information an thing was being destroyed so it leaves out what happened to certain people an why. I have always thought the cultural revolution was meaning there culture had gotten so heavy with controls that this caused the lose of information an poor book keeping at this time. This from a country that has records of aqueducts that are more advanced than anything the world would see for 500 year about.

The thing that can be found out i would think cause they have the actual records i assume of the travel of people in China when you travel from town to town even in the days preceding the cultural revolution they did this you first go to your local magistrate.

I don't get why this continues to happen mainly in martial arts do to the fact that in china they keep still to this day a list of people that are teaching martial arts an family list of people involved in something similar to this.

What i mean Cultural Revolution in China it seems there was less blood shed than would have been in America that still gets me when there was so much document destroying going on. I understand that the weight of all the land control was what was fought over still don't get why they would lose all these thing related to family an inheritance!?

This is what i have had the hardest time understanding cause they have a written knowledge of Hsing Yi an Tiger systems but all the other system end up losing there family list an heritage at the same time as the cultural revolution. Why?

This thing is common to all system oddly but Hsing Yi an Tiger system cause there is so much info left on these to system again Why?

I know this seem like i went off topic but i think it deals directly with what was happening at the time in Taiji. 1850 to the 1900.

Simplest answer, they were killing martial arts masters and just about anyone else linked to the older ways in China. So people stopped keeping records that would get them killed. But the Cultural revolution started in 1966 Shouhou’s branch of Yang was originally ended in 1939, but then you had a lot of other issues going on in China at that time as well.

See here
http://encarta.msn.com/sidebar_461501118/1939_China.html

 

[Nobody]

Yea i should have just went to encyclopedia your right.

But there has always seemed a lose of records around the 1900 not during the 1950 this has been what gets me on why they seem to just stat say always around such time as 1850 to about 1900 in most thing from China.

I agree on the Time frame you are saying but it is what i see that they were building for more than a hundred years towards that. You know like the culture got top heavy with records an land controls so lets go Communist makes perfect sense. Not a joke does make perfect sense cause to many people had land rights that the governement needed to maintain the society. my OP

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yea i should have just went to encyclopedia your right.

But there has always seemed a lose of records around the 1900 not during the 1950 this has been what gets me on why they seem to just stat say always around such time as 1850 to about 1900 in most thing from China.

I agree on the Time frame you are saying but it is what i see that they were building for more than a hundred years towards that. You know like the culture got top heavy with records an land controls so lets go Communist makes perfect sense. Not a joke does make perfect sense cause to many people had land rights that the governement needed to maintain the society. my OP

The Qing Dynasty Ended in 1911
The last Emperor of the Qing Dynasty was put on the thrown in 1908 at about 1 year old

China was in upheaval during the Empress Dowager Cixi who controlled China from 1861 to her death in 1908
There were a lot of foreign powers attempting to divide China up at this time which brought on the Boxer rebellion in 1900

The republic started in 1911 and ended in 1949

Republic of China (in Taiwan) 1949 - They took a lot of stuff with them

The Communists started in 1949

To Chinese it is the Mandate of Heaven, all dynasties start out with the blessing of heaven and for a while all is well but as time goes on these dynasties become corrupt and are no longer in the favor of heaven and the next guy that has the blessing of heaven takes over. However at the end of Dynasties it is generally pretty much a lot of fighting and disarray so the records are not kept as well during these times.

 

[Nobody]

These are the thing that really i first remember getting from China there record keeping. other thing money-paper800's , 1200 cross bow, 400 they had kilns that worked with double baffle. Typeset in 1000's. the list is epic just seems sad that during the time that they could have had the greatest possible effect on the world they would falter so.

This all seems to relate often to when martial arts from China often say they had lost contact with the people that had once been involved with there system.

Yea right after you suggested i went out an looked in the encyclopedia.

 

[Xue Sheng]

These are the thing that really i first remember getting from China there record keeping. other thing money-paper800's , 1200 cross bow, 400 they had kilns that worked with double baffle. Typeset in 1000's. the list is epic just seems sad that during the time that they could have had the greatest possible effect on the world they would falter so.

This all seems to relate often to when martial arts from China often say they had lost contact with the people that had once been involved with there system.

Yea right after you suggested i went out an looked in the encyclopedia.

Part of the problem with the downfall of in the late 1800s was Empress Dowager Cixi. She did not want to change anything militarily and lived in a bit of a fantasy world inside the walls of the Forbidden City. She was also a rather nasty person the killed her way to the top.

While the rest of the world was modernizing their military she was watching grand plays inside the Forbidden City believing in the China that once was and its power it once had.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Part of the problem with the downfall of in the late 1800s was Empress Dowager Cixi. She did not want to change anything militarily and lived in a bit of a fantasy world inside the walls of the Forbidden City. She was also a rather nasty person the killed her way to the top.

While the rest of the world was modernizing their military she was watching grand plays inside the Forbidden City believing in the China that once was and its power it once had.

She did build a beautiful stone ship with the money raised to develop a modern navy. What was left was used to build a single small steam gunboat, in Beijing. I don't think it ever saw the sea, or any water for that matter.

The Cultural Revolution was particularly bad for my own school's lineage because we can only trace things back to the early '70s. So I can't imagine the difficulties for an art that has spanned numerous dynastic changes like taiji. Of course, modern taiji has really only had to deal with three plus the Cultural Revolution, but that more than enough to muddy already pretty murky waters. That the Yang family has such comprehensive records is astounding and perhaps a little suspicious. Maybe they have always had friends in high places.

 

[Xue Sheng]

She did build a beautiful stone ship with the money raised to develop a modern navy. What was left was used to build a single small steam gunboat, in Beijing. I don't think it ever saw the sea, or any water for that matter.

Yes and I mus say it is a rather impressive stone ship. It sits there at the Summer palace. I remeber thinking when I saw it how impressive it was and how it must have beena great place for parties and yet not so good against invaders.

The Cultural Revolution was particularly bad for my own school's lineage because we can only trace things back to the early '70s. So I can't imagine the difficulties for an art that has spanned numerous dynastic changes like taiji. Of course, modern taiji has really only had to deal with three plus the Cultural Revolution, but that more than enough to muddy already pretty murky waters. That the Yang family has such comprehensive records is astounding and perhaps a little suspicious. Maybe they have always had friends in high places.

Yes, and I am still working on that, I found a reference to snake bagua and then promptly lost it and I have not been able to find it since.

I too have my doubts about the Yang family motives in this, but as my sifu said. "There is no way you can ever prove anything... they control the lineage rather well."

What amazes me as that just about all the other Taiji families know where their lineage went and is. Even the Chen family knows of a branch in Shandong that they no longer teach.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Yes and I mus say it is a rather impressive stone ship. It sits there at the Summer palace. I remeber thinking when I saw it how impressive it was and how it must have beena great place for parties and yet not so good against invaders.



Yes, and I am still working on that, I found a reference to snake bagua and then promptly lost it and I have not been able to find it since.

I too have my doubts about the Yang family motives in this, but as my sifu said. "There is no way you can ever prove anything... they control the lineage rather well."

What amazes me as that just about all the other Taiji families know where their lineage went and is. Even the Chen family knows of a branch in Shandong that they no longer teach.

My recent research has suggested a definite Emei connection. We do have a Liu style linear form to go with circle-walking. There is an Emei snake school which includes qinna, as do we. There might even be a connection to Bai Mei through the Golden Bell qigong (bit iffy though).

It is strange that the Yang family seems to know more about its past than about the current living branches. This is especially cogent as they make such stringent claims on maintaining control of the development of the style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My recent research has suggested a definite Emei connection. We do have a Liu style linear form to go with circle-walking. There is an Emei snake school which includes qinna, as do we. There might even be a connection to Bai Mei through the Golden Bell qigong (bit iffy though).

That gave me an idea

It is strange that the Yang family seems to know more about its past than about the current living branches. This is especially cogent as they make such stringent claims on maintaining control of the development of the style.

There is a place that lineages of the Yang family can be checked but it will take some research and some foot work and an ability to read traditional Chinese and I am working on that... but it is going painfully slow.

Unless of course the Yang’s have taken up hammers and chisels it should be able to be checked