Will Wonders never cease?

[Xue Sheng]

It appears that an old limb cut off of the Yang family tree has grown back...AMAZING!!!

And here they were saying it didn't exist... must have been a miracle

Yang Shouhou's line was not there and look now it is.

The old family tree
http://web.archive.org/web/20010702114650/www.yangfamilytaichi.com/info/images/familytree.jpg

The New Family Tree
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/yang/tree/images/familytree.jpg

Surprisingly enough Yang Shouhou's line has reappeared all the way up to a birth in 1989, even though it was allegedly it went no further than his son.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Yang Style Tai Chi has always left a bitter taste in my mouth, even though it is what I practice. No one in the family seems to do the form the same. Take old videos of Fu Zhong Wen(supposedly identical to Yang Cheng Fu) and then watch the Yang Zhenduo and Jun, even they are somewhat different! Of course you can go on to older videos such as

and even he does it differently! The Yangs seem to really have trouble with keeping their form's straight; now they can't even keep their family geneology straight!

If my Yang style wasn't mostly self taught, and there were another decent Tai Chi instructor around, I would definitely change styles.

 

[oxy]

No one in the family seems to do the form the same. Take old videos of Fu Zhong Wen(supposedly identical to Yang Cheng Fu) and then watch the Yang Zhenduo and Jun, even they are somewhat different! Of course you can go on to older videos such as

and even he does it differently! The Yangs seem to really have trouble with keeping their form's straight; now they can't even keep their family geneology straight!

As I understand it (extrapolated from a few comments on other Taiji threads), the forms need not seem like they were mass produced (ie, complete resemblance to everyone). The Yang's 10 essences are the guiding factors of the style rather than anal retentativeness on being completely "blue-print" resemblant. It's not like anyone can be blue-print resemblant when they're defending themselves from harm.

Learning and teaching, on the other hand, is better if you have a standard version to work from. But once you move to a high enough level, it's better if you do some exploration with your own form. If people never branched out and preferred to keep everything the same as before then we wouldn't have Taiji in the first place.

I don't see why the change in geneaology says anything. It's better than a geneaology that doesn't change in light of the facts. Would you prefer that the Yang family continued to ignore the existence of that branch knowing that it does exist?

 

[Flying Crane]

Lazarus rises from the dead.

 

[East Winds]

oxy,

Well done!!! I agree with you 100%. You'r right on the money.


Very best wishes

 

[East Winds]

bigfootsquatch,

Forms may LOOK different due to age, physique, speed and ability, as in Yang Shou Zhong, Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo. In fact they are indeed all doing the same form. They are all showing the essences left to us by Yang Cheng fu and THAT is the real secret of Yang style taijiquan. If ALL the essences are in EVERY posture than the outward manifestation of the form matters little. If the essences are in place, the form will be effective as a martial art and a health giving exercise and more to the point, will be correct.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't see why the change in geneaology says anything. It's better than a geneaology that doesn't change in light of the facts. Would you prefer that the Yang family continued to ignore the existence of that branch knowing that it does exist?

What it says is that a branch of the family that they claimed was DEAD.... was not. And it makes me wonder why they did any of this at all. Either say right from the start he and his lineage is there or continue the lie. Why the change? Also why the previous claims that the style of Shouhou no longer exists? And now POOF Shouhuo and his line reappear.

And to add to this, NONE of the current Yang family people that most in Taiji know have absolutely NO idea how to do the form of Shouhou. But I for one would like to find someone form the newly added branch to see what it is suppose to look like. This would end a whole lot of "I do the style of Luchan" garbage. Or my teacher was a student of Shouhou or Banhou. We would know what it is suppose to look like.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yang Style Tai Chi has always left a bitter taste in my mouth, even though it is what I practice. No one in the family seems to do the form the same. Take old videos of Fu Zhong Wen(supposedly identical to Yang Cheng Fu) and then watch the Yang Zhenduo and Jun, even they are somewhat different! Of course you can go on to older videos such as

and even he does it differently! The Yangs seem to really have trouble with keeping their form's straight; now they can't even keep their family geneology straight!

If my Yang style wasn't mostly self taught, and there were another decent Tai Chi instructor around, I would definitely change styles.

Yang style from teacher to teacher will change a bit, however if it changes to much it becomes another style that is why you got Yang from Chen.

But then again there is an awful lot of sloppy Yang style out there. But what you see from Fu or Yang or Tung will vary and it is simply up to the practitioner to decide which one they wish to follow. My own personal opinion is that I am incredibly happy with what I get form the Tung line and I do not think I would be happy studying with the Yang family at all. But that is just my opinion.

But now it is likely we may have 2 different Traditional Yang styles to deal with and if this is the case, who knows, I may like what comes from the Shouhou line better than Tung.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Lazarus rises from the dead.

Incredible...isn't it

 

[oxy]

What it says is that a branch of the family that they claimed was DEAD.... was not. And it makes me wonder why they did any of this at all. Either say right from the start he and his lineage is there or continue the lie. Why the change? Also why the previous claims that the style of Shouhou no longer exists? And now POOF Shouhuo and his line reappear.

I absolutely agree with all of your points.

I was merely pointing out that the restoration of Shouhou's line does not say anything about Yang Taiji in general. I was specifically responding to this comment by bigfootsquatch and his general dissatisfaction of Yang Taiji:

The Yangs seem to really have trouble with keeping their form's straight; now they can't even keep their family geneology straight!

As to why the line would suddenly reappear...

I think I brought up Hanlon's Razor in another thread: never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. To generalise this, it is generally more closer to the truth that there was no intention to prevent the lineage from being included.

With all these history things, especially the turmoil going on the middle of last century in China, it's simply not possible to document everything. Maybe the Yang's did not believe they previously had enough evidence, but now they do. It's not like martial arts geneaology is somehow immune from being imperfect unlike normal geneaologies. The LHBF community itself is still on the process of uncovering legitimate lines. My teacher's teacher, even though he was a student of Chan Yik Yan for 8 years before his death, is not really known to the rest of the LHBF community even though he and his students established himself well in Hong Kong.

I don't know about the politics of the Shouhou line, but it is generally safe practice to not include something until there is sufficient evidence. Prefer to add to correct mistakes rather than subtract.

And to add to this, NONE of the current Yang family people that most in Taiji know have absolutely NO idea how to do the form of Shouhou. But I for one would like to find someone form the newly added branch to see what it is suppose to look like. This would end a whole lot of "I do the style of Luchan" garbage. Or my teacher was a student of Shouhou or Banhou. We would know what it is suppose to look like.

That would be for the best.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

It would be interesting to know whether any of the sons of Yang Zhen Sheng in fact inherited their grandfathers form (Shou Hou) and whether in fact they taught/teach it. If they do they certainly don't advertise it!!! And as you know, female members of the Traditional Chinese family are not credited with inheriting the family line. These could be the simple reasons for not including the family previously in what is after all a Taji lineage chart.

Very best wishes

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Hey everyone,
I agree that the form should be adapted when the stylist reaches a higher level, but like Xue said, there are a WHOLE lot of sloppy practioners in Yang Style. Yes there are sloppy practioners in all Tai Chi, but Yang seems excessively so. Examples of proper form adaptation would be along the lines of the Tung family, whose form still resembles the traditional form to some extent. Form adaptation that completely changes moves for the sake of changing it does not make any sense. Watch Erle Montaigue's opening Yang(Cheng Fu) form and you have the Chen Pan Ling(and Wu style I think) form. Take Terry Dunns(instructor who in the states) opening form and you have Cheng Man Ching's form!

If the form is changed so much that it does not even resemble the original form, then it is time for a name change. Yang Tai Chi IS the traditional 108 family form handed by Yang Cheng Fu, and now the 49 shortened form. Sorry guys, Michuan is not a hidden family tradition either as said in another post. Michuan is what Yang Lu Chan taught to a bunch of foreign invaders that most Chinese hated. Now, maybe the new family line will add another form, but until then the above forms are the only Yang forms. I can handle anyone calling their forms Yang-derived/influenced/modified etc, but to call it Yang STYLE and it does not resemble Yang style, nor does the Yang family acknowledge it as their form, then it sounds like a cash in to me.

If one could simply follow the principles of Yang Cheng Fu and be doing Yang Tai Chi, why wouldn't someone take the Sun or Wu styles for instance, and adapt them to his principles. Would that then qualify as Yang Tai Chi??

(Sorry if my message sounds sketchy, I had to get up a few times, so it may not flow good, lol)

 

[East Winds]

bigfootsquatch,

I think you are right. And yes, there is a huge amount of sloppy "Yang" style taijiquan out there. This mostly came about through Instructors who claimed that Yang Cheng-fu had "removed all the Fa Jin" from Lu Chang's form and therefore began teaching a form that contained no Fa Jin. Some Instructors even claimed to do Lu Chan's form and put back the so called "overt Fa Jin" that they thought Lu Chan had in his form. In fact Lu Chan himself began to develop and "hide" the Fa Jin in his form and of course the difference was that where Chen does Silk Reeling (Chan Si Gong) in their form to produce obvious Fa Jin movements, Lu Chan developed Silk Pulling (Chou Si Gong) where the emphasis was on the Yin or gathering of energy to produce Fa Jin. This is the element that is still taught in Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan today. This is also why Tung style succeeds and Cheng Man Ching style fails.

Very best wishes

 

[oxy]

This is also why Tung style succeeds and Cheng Man Ching style fails.

At what?

 

[East Winds]

oxy,

Sorry, that was badly phrased. What I meant was that the Tung form could be considered Yang style, whilst Cheng Manching's form could not. The Tung Ying Chieh form contains Cheng Fu's essences - Cheng Manching form only pays lip service to them. (I'll now sit back and await the onslaught from CMC pratitioners!!!!):shrug: But before they do, would they please tell me in which part of their form they practise Chou Si Gong (or Chou Si Jin if you prefer).

Very best wishes

 

[dmax999]

Cheng Manching form only pays lip service to them. (I'll now sit back and await the onslaught from CMC pratitioners!!!!):shrug: But before they do, would they please tell me in which part of their form they practise Chou Si Gong (or Chou Si Jin if you prefer).

First I will have to assume that William CC Chen's style is close enough to CMC to use that for discussion (I have never actually done CMC, but do practice William CC Chen's style). If you disagree with that assumption, ignore the rest of this post.

I am a bit confused by your statement. What part does not follow the essences set down by Cheng-Fu? I could very well make the argument that for beginners the CMC style would be easier to follow the essences then traditional Yang family style. I actually believe that is the reason CMC made most of the changes he did make. You ever watch a strong Kung-Fu guy try to do Yang Tai Chi? You teach Tai Chi, if you were willing to throw out tradition and change the form to make it easier for others to learn proper technique quicker what changes would you come up with, and would they be much different then CMC style?

You also imply that there is no issuance of energy in CMC style, or at least that is what I am reading. I completely disagree, it is expressed in the same way that it is in the traditional Yang family form. It looks different, and probably looks absent to most, but under a good teacher it becomes blatently obvious and teaches you a new way of thinking about strikes (at least it did for me). I use the strikes I learned from William CC Chen whenever I practice on a heavy bag and I believe I can hit it much harder now then before I learned how to strike his way, not to mention faster and I don't get tired nearly as fast.

I understand people wanting to say CMC is not Yang Family style, and I don't really have any problem with people making that statement. For one, it is done differently enough it probably warrents it, but mostly the Yang Family says it is not their style and I believe they should have the right to say so.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK this is going off post but I feel I should say that I do not feel that Cheng Manching style is Yang style and the Yang family also says that, this is one of the few things the Yang family and I actually agree on (not that it matter to them).

But I do feel CMC style is a very good style and if you train it you get very much involved with the internal aspects of Taiji.

I do not know how much of CMC from William CC Chen is like the original form from Cheng Manching, but I am VERY impressed with William CC Chen. I am also VERY impressed with the writings of Cheng Manching. As a matter of fact I Highly recommend one of his books (Cheng Tzu’s 13 Treatises) to all those that train Taiji, it is very insightful.

But none of this is related to the miraculous return of Shou Hou and if family to the Yang family tree

 

[oxy]

I am also VERY impressed with the writings of Cheng Manching. As a matter of fact I Highly recommend one of his books (Cheng Tzu’s 13 Treatises) to all those that train Taiji, it is very insightful.

I haven't read much of his writings. But my LHBF teacher was very influenced by Cheng Manching's writings and holds them in high regard. They are apparently also quite compatible with LHBF, but that's another thread.

 

[East Winds]

Dmax999

Thanks for the very thoughtful and considered post. As you know, I’m not exactly a fan of CMC form but I have always conceded that it is an excellent fighting form especially if taught by knowledgeable teachers like William CC Chen. As you also know I had the chance to work with him for a week on a visit he made to Scotland, so I had an opportunity to “push” with him as well as watch his form. (I also had the opportunity of working with Katy Cheng (CMC’s daughter) when she visited Scotland and it was her in fact who gave me a copy of the “essences” as used by CMC practitioners). And yes, I have to agree with your distinction between William CC Chen and some other CMC practitioners I have met here in Scotland and elsewhere.

I hope you will agree that if you look at CMC doing Single Whip and Cheng-fu doing Single Whip, there is a marked difference in postural stance. I think CMC violates the first and possibly the second essences and of course we teach in Traditional Yang, that the essences are cumulative. i.e you cannot be doing essences 2 (Sinking shoulders and elbows) if essence 1 (High Spirit) is missing and so on. There are similar differences in many other postures like Brush and Push. I think CMC misunderstood the repetitions in Cheng fu’s form. For instance CMC says “The complete T’ai Chi Ch’uan form consisted of more than one hundred and twenty movements. Among these there were many repetitions, executed over and over endlessly. This was a great waste of mental energy without any benefit to either theory or practise”. (Cheng Man-Ch’ings Advanced T’ai Chi Form Instructions p.18). I suggest that this would be like putting on a great play or opera and missing out one or two acts. You might get the flavour of what was happening, but you would lose the subtleties of the whole plot.

I agree about the striking or the issuing of energy, but again I think William CC Chen comes at that from a different perspective. The week I spent with him he was teaching his “3 nails” concept and whilst it was certainly impressive, I felt that it came from an external pugilistic or boxing form, rather than from an internal arts form. As I said in my previous post, it was Lu Chan who first started to hide the Fa Jin by using Chou Si Gong principles, incorporating the 10 essences ( or in his case the 13 postures) and doing the repititions and I suggest that Cheng Fu far from removing Fa Jin, merely completed the process of hiding it. I could feel the difference in emphasis when William CC Chen pushed me and when my own Master pushed me, which I put down to the different ways of issuing energy (Jin).

Anyway, thank you for your valuable input.

Very best wishes


P.S. My "Rogues Gallery" contains a photo of me and Willaim CC Chen. One of my prized possession.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Sorry, you a correct. we have wandered way off post.

Apologies

Very best wishes