Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Ceicei, Dec 4, 2004.

  1. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,157
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Well, since I have never been to a seminar of his, nor visited his dojo, nor subjected myself to his displays of gi, I cannot. Perhaps @Buka can elaborate on that having actually been to one of Mr. Dillman's seminars.

    But in that it seems his apparent application of gi never seems to be shown outside his dojo or outside his own students, it would seem there is some obscuring of true results. If I am wrong I would love to hear it from someone trustworthy like @Buka.

    FWIW, I do believe in gi. But not quite the way Mr. Dillman displays it.
     
  2. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    2,771
    Likes Received:
    1,409
    Trophy Points:
    353
    Location:
    In the dojo
    My former sensei attended a Dillman/Wally Jay/Remi Presas seminar back in the day before Dillman started his no-touch KO fiasco. He went for Dillman’s pressure points an kata bunkai (application); the other two guys were a bonus in his mind before he went.

    According to him...
    Dillman’s videos show what looks like foolproof KOs, working every time, over and over again. And against attendees rather than solely against his own crew. At the seminar he was at, Dillman’s crew was KOed and/or stunned every time (depending on Dillman’s desired effect). The attendees weren’t nearly as consistent. There were quite a few who weren’t phased by anything. My former sensei volunteered as an opponent. He said it hurt, but he didn’t get KOed like some others did (with the same techniques).

    He used the Dillman stuff he learned as trapping/grappling reinforcers rather than the “tap and KO” stuff after that. He said the Presas and Jay stuff was great and made the trip worthwhile, whereas if it was just Dillman, he’d have been pretty upset.

    For what it’s worth.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,431
    Likes Received:
    4,296
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I don't know what you mean.
     
  4. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,431
    Likes Received:
    4,296
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I just left a message with one of my guys who went to that Dillman seminar with me.....trying to jog my memories a bit. I wish I could remember it in more detail, and it wasn't that long ago, probably 05 or thereabouts. He didn't go into one touch or no touch knock outs, but rather the meridians in the body for the flow of energy. Acupuncture and acupressure points really.

    The seminar was primarily people who were already associated with him in one form or another, but not like long term students of his - or at least that's how I read it. A buddy of mine invited me, he was into the whole meridian thing at the time. There was also some come alongs and standing joint lock stuff, with emphasis on detailed points on where to grab.

    And he did a serious breakdown of a couple Katas that the people were familiar with. Did a great job of it, in my opinion. Fascinating, really.

    Referenced some books he was selling during the Kata breakdowns, did a great salesman job doing that, too. I was fascinated with the whole Dillman thing, his whole fast talking persona. I found him to be much more likeable than I had thought I would. I found myself, at times, studying him more than listening to what he had to say.

    But he has a vast Martial experience, of that there was little doubt. I would have loved to have gotten shartfaced with him afterwards, that would have been pretty interesting.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    10,526
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    There is a saying, “it takes a thousand acts to build a reputation, and only one to destroy it.”

    Sounds like Dillman may have done his thousand acts and then undermined his own work with the one act of the no-touch knockouts that seriously harmed his credibility.

    It would be good for us perhaps to remember that those same people who are pushing some nonsense MIGHT at the same time be a legitimate resource for other information. Maybe we need to try and see past the one act, sometimes:
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,431
    Likes Received:
    4,296
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    That's a great point.

    Tell you something else I remember. Went to a week long training camp with Wally Jay back in the day. Wally and a dozen of his assistants taught, there was about 120 people attending. All the attendees were Japanese Jiu-Jitsu folks except for nine karate guys. I had five of my black belts with me, there were two black belts from Texas and one very quiet guy, mid to late twenties, from Pennsylvania.

    As the week progresses, I keep catching the Pennsylvania guy out of the corner of my eye. This kid is one hell of a Karate man. Moves so well, so crisp, so fluid. And there's not a peep out of him, even when the Jiu-jitsu guys take advantage and intentionally hurt him - which they did to all the karate guys for the first two days - until we put a stop to it and damn near killed them.

    Anyway, I didn't get a chance to talk to the kid at all, too busy with my own guys and the two Texas guys who hooked up with us.

    The last day, the Friday, I finally got a chance to chat, and eventually asked him who he trained with.
    He was a student of George Dillman. It's the only guy he had ever trained with.
    Made me go "hmmm."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    10,526
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Yeah, I also think about James Mitose in this context. He did some bad deeds and spent the end of his life in prison. I have read both of his books, and his second book has me absolutely convinced that he suffered from severe mental illnesss, at least later in his life.

    Much of the kenpo world denounces him, and accuse him of being nothing but a charlatan and a fraud. The Tracy lineage (in which I trained for a time) sees him as holding a legitimate place in our lineage, although he tends to be elevated above what I personally feel is appropriate. Honestly, from what I know of him, I would have steered clear of him myself.

    However, it is entirely possible that he was a solid and legitimate martial artist before his troubles began. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. But it could be.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    13,509
    Likes Received:
    3,697
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Just as a credible source doesn't necessarily make a statement true, a discredited source doesn't automatically make one false.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,516
    Likes Received:
    2,990
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I read that's how they would pull off their chi punch stuff. Just wack you when you were not ready.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,516
    Likes Received:
    2,990
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Allen orr and force flow. He obviously puts out good fighters but I don't think it has much to do with kung fu magic.
     
  11. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    2,771
    Likes Received:
    1,409
    Trophy Points:
    353
    Location:
    In the dojo
    Like the saying goes...

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
     
  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    2,771
    Likes Received:
    1,409
    Trophy Points:
    353
    Location:
    In the dojo
    I own the Adanced Pressure Point Fighting of Ryu Kyu Kempo book. It’s actually really good. Sure there’s some mysticism and voodoo in it, but getting past that and there’s a lot of useful stuff. The standout to me is he breaks down Naihanchi kata at the end. I really liked it.

    My former sensei let me borrow a few VHS tapes on his kata breakdown. A ton of great stuff with a few not so good KOs. But even ignoring the KOs, and the technique itself was sound.

    I’d been out of the loop for about 15 years. I googled Dillman when I started up again, and out came the no-touch KO crap. It ruined a lot of his prior stuff for me instantly. But remembering his earlier stuff had me focus on the good stuff.

    All IMO.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,157
    Likes Received:
    639
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Disrespect is never good. But at a teaching seminar, unacceptable!
     
  14. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,431
    Likes Received:
    4,296
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    I almost forgot about Mitose. Definitely a "different" character than the norm. I spoke to some folks back in the nineties out here who had trained with him. They agreed with what you said about mental health.


    I have to point out that Professor Jay had no idea any of this was going on, it was a large gymnasium and would only happen when he was in another part of the gym. It would take place when they wanted to show you the correct position or foot placement or whatever.....or if you asked about a particular part of the technique. They would demonstrate on you and hold you in the most painful part of the technique, with ever increasing pressure, while you tapped like crazy.

    So, the second day was more of the same. Then the lunch break came. We were outside on the grass, beautiful summer day, and my group was looking at me. I said, "Okay, enough of this crap. Follow my lead."

    From that point, I would ask a question, they would demonstrate and crank the hell out of me. When I was finally let up, or let go of, I would say, "let me see if I have that right" and I'd do it to them. Only I wouldn't be nice. And I wouldn't let go when they tapped. And I wouldn't let go when they screamed. And I wouldn't let go until other instructors came rushing over. I explained to the other instructors what was about to happen and that you better bring over The Professor because I still wasn't letting go. (And my boys stood by, smiling, ready to fight, my wife, too, and she's meaner than all of them.)

    Wally came over and I explained, quite succinctly, STILL holding the guy down in pain. Wally nodded, gave them a disapproving look, patted my back, smiled and said, "very good". And went back to what he was doing. There was no more BS from that point forward. The rest of the seminar was wonderful, we learned a lot and had a ball. But I still HATE those sons of..

    So.....yesterday I called my buddy/student and left a message about that Dillman seminar. He called me back and we talked for two fricken' hours. What a great time we had on the phone, all the memories came flooding back. My buddy has been training as long as I have and, at this point, is a more experienced Martial Artist than I am. He's trained with the folks I have, and many, many more. And he teaches full time for a living.

    I had forgotten - he hooked up with Dillman and his people for about a year and a half after that seminar. Not giving up his own training, jut cutting it back some and going into the Dillman thing pretty much full time.

    Dillman used to own Muhammed Ali's old training camp in Deer Lake Pennsylvania. My buddy, and four or five of his students, went to two different week long training camps there with Dillman and his people. Man, I sure wish I went with him, being a fan of Ali, that would have been just a great and historic experience for me. Kicked myself in the butt for missing it back then. Then forgot all about it. Kicking myself again now.

    Anyway, he learned a lot about the body. He has more of a historic slant on Kata than I do and learned a lot about a lot of the Katas Dillman's association does. He also became friends with some of Dillman's top guys, who he assures me are really talented and knowledgeable Martial Artists to this day. I forget their names, if your interested I'll ask him again.

    He also said that he was studying so much about the body so much at home, he felt like he was back in school full time. After a year and a half he left. Too much BS with the other stuff.

    He also informed me that after a year or so he would be working with Dillman or one of his assistants and while doing partner work they would crank the crap out of him way beyond what was safe. My buddy is one hundred percent a gentleman, and he ain't no dummy. So he'd say, "You know, I'm giving you my arm to practice the technique, or to demo it for others, I'm GIVING it to you. You want to impress me, fight me and get my arm and do that. Go ahead, let's see what you can do." And they would back off.

    And in the world of coincidence..........my buddy runs a very busy dojo, this one has been running for over fifteen years. Three days ago he had one of his assistant instructors clean out some old storage cabinets to "get rid of crap we don't use". And his assistant found a whole pile of DVDs from one of Dillman's top assistants. My buddy didn't even remember they were there. He hasn't even watched them. Dillman's assistant gave them to him to sell fifteen years ago. He had forgotten all about them.

    He put them on a table for anyone who wanted them for free. I told him I wanted a set, so he's going to send them. If anyone wants to check them out after I do, I'll gladly send them to you. Might be fun to watch. Might be stuff to learn. Might be all smoke and mirrors.

    What a coincidence. Been there for years, forgotten. Just came out of the cabinet when we were talking about Dillman right here on the boards. Kinda cool.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    13,509
    Likes Received:
    3,697
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    You have the coolest stories, man - even when you're just talking about a damned phone call. When you're done with them, I'll take a gander at those DVDs and then pass them along to someone else (unless someone with a driving desire for them asks before then).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    14,378
    Likes Received:
    3,106
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    I'd take a gander too. I think Dillman is a nutjob, but I also know he trained under some very talented instructors before he bought into the voodoo nonsense.
     
  17. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,431
    Likes Received:
    4,296
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Absolutely, gentlemen, I'll check them out and pass them along. If I decide to keep them I'll send them anyway and you can make stick figure notes...copying being against rules and all that. :)

    Any to any of the other guys, too. No problem.

    EDIT. P.S. Gerry, I know I still owe you the second bunch of notes concerning multiples. And I will get them to you.....I'm just so fricken lazy when it comes to copying notes. Sorry, bro.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Hanshi

    Hanshi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Virginia
    Very interesting article with both "food for thought" and some very accurate conclusions. I've boxed, studied karate, aikido and other martial arts and weapons. Since s-d isn't the only reason people study karate, or something else, applying these "facts" across the board makes little sense. I know of quite a few black belts who would be lost in a real situation. The only thing they have going for them is that element of surprise; the attacker doesn't expect them to know anything.

    I was trained in the principle of, weapons first always, environmental weapons, not classical. Also firearms and knives! Empty hands is fine for tournaments and the dojo but not the street. One can easily train for self-defense without studying any martial art and my aikido instructor has such a program that he teaches from the USA to Isreal, Russia and other countries. Mostly it's for LEO and military. And as I have mentioned before, "will beats skill".
     
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    10,526
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I would be curious to know what they had to say about the quality and type of training they got from Mitose.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    13,509
    Likes Received:
    3,697
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    No worries, brother. I'm a patient guy, especially when someone is doing me a favor.
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page
does karate work
,
does karate work in a real fight
,
effectiveness of karate
,
how effective is karate in a street fight
,

is karate effective

,
is karate effective in a street fight
,
is karate effective self defense
,
is karate really effective
,
is karate useful
,
is traditional karate effective
,
karate is useful for street fight
,
karate not effective
,
karate useful
,
tense teaching by kyanin school