Why Krav Maga when nothing is enough?

Gerry Seymour

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Okay. My experience is that it always comes back to one of these four explanations, which is well documented in several years of reading these threads. I look forward to your non-self serving analysis, where you don't start discussing all of the things you teach that would actually have helped her survive better, or the things that she did wrong that still worked, but you teach your students never to do.
If they worked in that situation, they aren't wrong. On the other hand, if they just barely didn't make things worse, they might be wrong...in that situation. That shouldn't be a matter of style, but a matter of objective analysis of the situation. Given that most techniques look like crap in real use, it would be difficult to term anything "wrong" unless it's nearly always going to make things more dangerous (like telling a yelling person to "calm down").
 

Paul_D

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For me, it is not a question of martial arts. Whether someone is totally untrained, or they have a wall full of balck belt ceritifiactes is irrelevent, to me the only relevant question should be; Do I want to risk dying for the contents of my till?
 

Steve

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If they worked in that situation, they aren't wrong. On the other hand, if they just barely didn't make things worse, they might be wrong...in that situation. That shouldn't be a matter of style, but a matter of objective analysis of the situation. Given that most techniques look like crap in real use, it would be difficult to term anything "wrong" unless it's nearly always going to make things more dangerous (like telling a yelling person to "calm down").
Not necessarily. Correlation doesn't necessarily indicate causation. Things can be very misleading if you're lookojg for support for a predetermined position.
 

drop bear

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Are you contending that physical defensive training is not effective? Not useful? There's no confirmation bias in the statement that she was lucky. I (and most martial artists I know) would say the same thing for anyone who survives a gun attack, regardless of their training.

And, if she had training, and if the training showed in a response (using techniques and principles from her training) then it would, in fact, be some reasonable evidence of effectiveness (in that specific situation) for that training.

It is not the style it is the individual.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Not necessarily. Correlation doesn't necessarily indicate causation. Things can be very misleading if you're lookojg for support for a predetermined position.
Nothing in my comment in any way spoke to correlation of any sort.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It is not the style it is the individual.
It is actually both. If the person has been taught ineffective techniques, and has learned them very well (so that they become habitual), their intent won't matter as much as if they have learned reasonably effective technique. On the other hand, if two people learn reasonably effective techniques, and one is more committed (both to the training, and to their defense), that person will be far more effective in the application of the techniques.
 

lklawson

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Exactly. Correlation is a statistical term. I was speaking about individual incidents.
It's a polite way of saying that your referenced anecdotal evidence is exactly that: anecdotal and trying to expand it to an entire group is scientifically unsound.

Have you heard the one about ice-cream causing snake-bite or "post hoc ergo propter hoc?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Gerry Seymour

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It's a polite way of saying that your referenced anecdotal evidence is exactly that: anecdotal and trying to expand it to an entire group is scientifically unsound.

Have you heard the one about ice-cream causing snake-bite or "post hoc ergo propter hoc?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Except that I didn't expand it to an entire group. I said if an action or choice worked in that moment then it was effective in that moment. It might be again later - probably would be, in a very similar situation. That makes no statement about the art's effectiveness. Perhaps I wasn't clear in that distinction - I'm actually too lazy to go back and re-read my own statement at the moment, so there may be a point there.

Anyway, my point was that the effectiveness of something in a given situation can only be judged against that situation. Did it appear (all we can usually say) to be effective, neutral, or dangerous in that particular moment. Then, of course, we have to do our best to figure out the "why" (for all three possible outcomes), so we can make some generalized decision for later use. This last part is the most dubious, and where there's the most room for argument. I might think it worked because the person moved a certain way, while you might think it worked because of the type of strike they moved, and another person might think it's all about the way the person yelled - startling the attacker, while someone else (why are all these people butting into our argument?) might think it was entirely a matter of the person's strength.

In no case would I think it's appropriate to generalize from a single instance (or even a few) to the effectiveness of an art, style, system, or method of training. You need a ton more evidence (and the resulting randomness that controls other variables) before you can start to cross that correlation-causality line.
 
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