Why is it so many people consider Okinawan arts as CMA?

[yentao]

I went back to some research I did a while back to see why it is I believed the way I did about taiji and kung fu. Here is basically what I had uncovered.

TAI CHI:
Many believe the "founder" of Tai Chi as we know it was Chang San-feng. There are those who believe his existence as literary, but acording to Ming-shih (the official chronicles of the Ming dynasty) he probably lived in the period from 1391 - 1459. Tai Chi being "created" sometime during this period.

However, many believe true taiji to have been created much earlier. In the early sixth century BC, there are writings from Lao Tsu which many believe are the beginings of taiji. Lao Tsu wrote:
Yield and Overcome;
Bend and be straight.
He who stands of tiptoe is not steady.
He who strides cannot maintain the pace.

Lao Tsu's entire writings reflect philosophical underpinnings of taiji. There are also accounts of a physician around 220 - 265 AD who not only relied on medicine but taught movements to strengthen the entire body. He believed that the body needed to be regularly exercised to help with digestion and circulation and only by doing so could a long and healthy live be achieved. Between these two historical "stories" many attribute the creation of taiji.

Kung Fu:
Not until the sixth century AD do we see the existence of Bodihdharma who is credited as developing the kung fu styles for the shaolin monastery. We all know that story.
Here is where my opinion begins, I think the principles of kung fu are also those of tai chi. I believe the writings of Lao Tsu are as much applicable to taiji as kung fu. The reason I say kung fu was influenced by taiji is that these "movements" were practiced medicinally before we see them being applied as martial arts. Honestly you could say the beging of CMA as a whole was writings like Lao Tsu's, but I choose to make the distinction because there was a different goal in mind for these movements from one time period to the next. When talking with my kung fu brothers and sisters we don't usually make this distinction because we all believe that taiji and kung fu are basically one, you learn the principles of 7* and those of taiji and they are identical. In our school we dont really care about what came first as we focus on truly learning it all. However, when addressing those outside my school where people get involved in researching historical documents and such its a must that we have some historical beliefs of when these things were created, so we stick to these beliefs.

JMHO,
7sm

I believe tai chi evolves from Chi Kung and Hsing I. The concept came from the book of changes by lao tzu.

 

[loki09789]

Okinawan culture is heavily influenced by Japan and China. The confusion really is over what is "Japanese" art and what is "Okinawan" art. The majority of the empty hand arts that people consider Japanese are really Okinawan in origin. Before Okinawan arts became popularized on Japan, judo/jiujiutsu type arts along with the samurai weapon styles were the core of practice.

I don't remember the dates/time, but Okinawan artists were invited to do a demonstration on mainland Japan and Okinawan arts were popularized and adopted. Over time, they became adapted and "Japanese" arts because enough Japanese practioners put thier own influence on them.

I know this is a generalization and is not true of all Japanes empty hand arts, but it is an over view.

Okinawan culuture is sort of like Native American or Aboriginal culture: infused with the influences of the people who controlled the geography or who they traded with.

 

[loki09789]

Interestingly, according to a history book my mom bought for me while she toured Shuri Castle, Okinawa - back when it was its own sovereign nation had a reputation of being a trade/comprimise empire. Back when Beijing was pronounced Pei King and was considered the "Forbidden City" China was sort of a closed cartel of trade. You had to buy into the trade conglomorate or you wouldn't have access to the goods and services. Japan refused for a time to buy into the Chinese trade conglomorate. Okinawa did. So, Japan got to maintain a political stance of boycotting China, but still had access to the commerce through dealings with Okinawa.

I would be willing to bet that some of this interaction is part of the reason for the Okinawan's being influenced by Japan and China both - but having a stronger chinese link culturally.

 

[brandon]

well i'll tell you i train in an Okinawan style of karate but i also trained in a japanese form and they are very different in kata and forms but they both call the teacher sensi ,i quess it depends on the teacher and how traditional they teach and the style i trained in is the same but one was from japan and the otjher is from okanawa but befre the japanese modifide it.

 

[RHD]

well i'll tell you i train in an Okinawan style of karate but i also trained in a japanese form and they are very different in kata and forms but they both call the teacher sensi ,i quess it depends on the teacher and how traditional they teach and the style i trained in is the same but one was from japan and the otjher is from okanawa but befre the japanese modifide it.

Okinawan arts aren't CMA's. They are influenced by CMA's, but are unique. Unfotunately, many practitioners of Japanese, Korean, and Okinawan MA's don't have much if any practical exposure to the Chinese fighting systems. Often I've seen posts or heard comments like "such and such style has more of a Chinese influence, or is more similar to Chinese styles" in reference to various Karate Ryu. In my experience, most of the people making such remarks have no idea what they're talking about and probably should realize that Jet Li is not representative of most CMA's.

Mike

 

[yentao]

I know, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, but I thought it deserved rehashing...



And to a degree that's fine. That is why rather than discussing "kung fu," I try to stick to style names (e.g. Hung Gar, Fut Gar, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Liu Hop Ba Fa, etc.). It makes it clearer and more definitive instead of the less accurate generalization of "kung fu."



I'm afraid I'm going to tentatively disagree with you on that... Taiji isn't really all that old, and is based on older arts itself. Chen Taiji is reputed to be a combination of indiginous local boxing mixed with the boxing methods of a wandering individual (I heard he was a soldier, but whatever). The postures of Taiji (no matter the style) are found in many Northern Shaolin styles, further removing the uniqueness from Taiji.

As for its principles "influencing" other arts, and its technical information being widely used, I'd say that if you look closely enough at nearly all CMA, you'll find quite a bit of similarities regardless of styles. I think a common cultural origin, coupled with a long history of inter-style interaction would be more responsible for cross-style similarities rather than the influence of one specific style.

Just my opinions though. To each their own.

Because Tai Chi take it from N shaolin not shaolin took from it.