"Who is your Sa Bum?"

[IcemanSK]

If you call someone Sahbum in front of a group of Koreans, in public, and sajajido is not implicetly understood they you usually would get a good dressing down and explained why you should use the term Sahbum nim.

Pardon my ignorance, I don't know the term sajajido. Can you help me?

 

[Dave Leverich]

Master Arnold,
I hear you completely on the visable lineage. I do find it interesting that the Korean masters were pushing for the Sround kick as well, I realize it's the newer Korean side kick... but I learned mine the same as you.

It's my understanding (mind you grade school Korean still), that the Nim is added a sign of courtesy? Aka, Sunsen nim, Sahbum nim, etc. Is it considered abrupt/rude to not use it, or does it actually change the meaning of the titles? (much like 'yo' is added to words etc).

Thanks much Sir.

 

[Kacey]

Pardon my ignorance, I don't know the term sajajido. Can you help me?

Sajeji Do = Student / Instructor Relationship. I've posted it on MT from time to time. The short form looks like this:

From the student's side:

1) Never tire of learning. A good student can learn anytime, anywhere.
2) A good student must be willing to sacrifice for his art and instructor.
3) Always set a good example for lower ranking students.

4) Always be loyal to your instructor.
5) If your instructor teaches you a technique, practice and attempt to utilize it.
6) Remember that a student’s conduct outside the dojang reflects on his instructor and school.

7) If a student adopts a technique from another gym and his instructor disapproves of it, the student must discard the technique.

8) Never be disrespectful to your instructor. Though a student is allowed to disagree, the student must follow instructions first and discuss the matter later.
9) A student must always be eager to ask questions and to learn.

10) Never betray your instructor’s trust.

From the instructor's side:

1) Never tire of teaching. A good instructor can teach anywhere, anytime, and is always ready to answer questions.
2) An instructor should be eager for his students to surpass him; it is the ultimate compliment for an instructor. A student should never be held back. If the instructor realizes his student has developed beyond his teaching capabilities, the student should be sent to a higher ranking instructor.
3) An instructor must always set a good example for his students and never attempt to defraud them.
4) The development of students should take precedence over commercialism. Once an instructor becomes concerned with materialism, he will lose the respect of his students.
5) Instructors should teach scientifically and theoretically to save time and energy.
6) Instructors should help students develop good contacts outside the club. It is an instructor’s responsibility to develop students outside as well as inside the training hall.
7) Students should be encouraged to visit other training halls and study other techniques. Students who are forbidden to visit other clubs are likely to become rebellious. There are two advantages for allowing students to visit other gyms; not only is there the possibility that a student may observe a technique that is ideally suited for him, but be may also have a chance to learn by comparing his techniques to inferior techniques.
8) All students should be treated equally, there should be no favorites. Students should always be scolded in private, never in front of the class.
9) If the instructor is not able to answer a student’s question, he should not fabricate an answer, but admit he does not know and attempt to find the answer as soon as possible. Too often a lower degree black belt dispenses illogical answers to his students merely because he is afraid of "losing face" because he does not know the answer. Always be honest with students.
10) Never betray a trust.

The long form, which can be found in The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, by Gen. Choi Hong Hi, covers several pages, and goes into considerably more depth than the short form above. Here's part of it, from the condensed version (pg 43, 1991):

Even today in modern Korea, hidden Confucian values often appear through the veneer of twentieth century sophistication. The son that remained implicitly obedient throughout his life became an object of worshipful veneration when the parent died. This obedience and loyalty never wavered.

From the Confucian values the Korean learned a deep sense of respect for his teachers. This relationship has always been an important one. An old Korean proverb states, "father and mother are the parents who bring me up while a teach is the parent who educates me." This is the reason why a student was expected to pay as much respect to his teacher as he would to his parents.

Thus the personal bonds of loyalty and respect towards the teacher and parents formed a national and family structure.

<snip>

Certainly a dedicated and sincere instructor is an absolute necessity for any dojang. The dojang cannot grow and mature without a cadre of equally dedicated and sincere students. Accordingly, both instructor and student owe a debt of responsibility to each other that can never be paid.

 

[howard]

It's my understanding (mind you grade school Korean still), that the Nim is added a sign of courtesy? Aka, Sunsen nim, Sahbum nim, etc. Is it considered abrupt/rude to not use it, or does it actually change the meaning of the titles?

Hi,

You're right. "nim" in Korean is what's called an honorific. It implies respect toward the person you're speaking to or about.

"Seonsaengnim" (&#49440;&#49373;&#45784 can mean teacher; it is also a general term of respect that can be used when addressing just about anybody who is your elder or superior to you in social or professional status (important in Korean culture).

Two master instructors could call each other "sahbeom", but you would always address your instructor (if he is a master in your system) as "sahbeomnim".

HTH...

 

[DArnold]

Hi,

You're right. "nim" in Korean is what's called an honorific. It implies respect toward the person you're speaking to or about.

"Seonsaengnim" (&#49440;&#49373;&#45784 can mean teacher; it is also a general term of respect that can be used when addressing just about anybody who is your elder or superior to you in social or professional status (important in Korean culture).

Two master instructors could call each other "sahbeom", but you would always address your instructor (if he is a master in your system) as "sahbeomnim".

HTH...

Whoa,
First off NOT Master, just Mr.!

Then,
Somewhat right!
The masters may leave off nim as they are of the same station in life.
And a student should always adress their instructor as Sahbumnim.

However, there is more, addressing them as Sahbum shows a larger sense of familiarity which, if accepted by the senior, shows everyone else the relationship between you and your instructor is somewhat different than the normal instructor/student (or better definition mentor/deciple) relationship.

The easiest way to draw a parallel would be hatamoto in japanese, or now that I think of it #1 in Star Trek. More of a personal confidant/student.

Just as there were many ways of bowing, these formalities flow into all walks of ettiquite.

When I call my instructor Sahbum in front of a group of Koreans, they immdiately look at my instructor to see his reaction. When their is no reaction their eyebrows usually go up because, with one word they know who I am and what my place is.

By switching these you are claiming a higher status than you might be in. Similar to one of your red belts just showing up in class one day with a black belt on without your knowledge!

If it is not done from ignorance it could get ugly as you have just embaresed your instructor!

 

[howard]

Whoa,
First off NOT Master, just Mr.!

No... Sahbeom is more than "mister". Have a look at the Chinese characters that comprise the term... they mean, in short, "teacher of teachers". Way more than "mister".

 

[Kacey]

No... Sahbeom is more than "mister". Have a look at the Chinese characters that comprise the term... they mean, in short, "teacher of teachers". Way more than "mister".

I think he meant his own rank - that he's not a master. I don't think that part was referring to translation of terminology.

 

[IcemanSK]

An off-shoot of my original question. Are you a reflection of your instructor? If a student does something odd, wrong, rude, etc. at a tournament is the instructor accountable to the higher ranked instructors/tournament directors? Conversely, if a student excells or is a good sport when he/she could choose to not be: is that a reflection or the instructor?

 

[DArnold]

An off-shoot of my original question. Are you a reflection of your instructor? If a student does something odd, wrong, rude, etc. at a tournament is the instructor accountable to the higher ranked instructors/tournament directors? Conversely, if a student excells or is a good sport when he/she could choose to not be: is that a reflection or the instructor?

Simple,
What is the first question anyone asks in any of these situations?
And why?

 

[Last Fearner]

An off-shoot of my original question. Are you a reflection of your instructor? If a student does something odd, wrong, rude, etc. at a tournament is the instructor accountable to the higher ranked instructors/tournament directors? Conversely, if a student excells or is a good sport when he/she could choose to not be: is that a reflection or the instructor?

I think the mirror reflects both ways. A student is the reflection of his/her instructor, and everything the student does reflects back on the instructor.

It is often clear to see the product of a good instructor - in training methods, attitude, respect, manners, knowledge, terminology, skill, and even the type of Kihap they use. This passes through the generations where a student has never trained with their teacher's teacher, but you can see that original teacher's traits in that student.

As well, if a student performs well at a tournament or testing, the teacher (and probably teachers for a few generations back) can take credit for those positive traits. Also, if the student displays poor sportsmanship, bad attitude, and a lack of respect, then it reflects poorly on their teacher. If I were the teacher, I would apologize to the offended party and/or tournament director.

My student is a product of my teaching. While an individual might go off on a tangent, and misrepresent who I am, it is still my responsibility to correct that behavior, and teach that student to do better in the future. I will not take students to events if their attitude and respect is not proper. I will not introduce students to Grandmasters and other V.I.P. unless they have already demonstrated to me that they know how to be courteous and respectful to their seniors, regardless of the circumstances.

Some students will show proper behavior in class, or under non-stressful situations, but fly off the handle if they lose a match, or feel judging was faulty. If I have not prepared my student for that kind of real-life scenario, and haven't tested them over and over to ensure they are capable of controlling their behavior, then it is my fault.

That's my personal opinion. :asian:
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Bumblebee]

I wasn't aware that the Taekwondo world was so small. I knew that my Grandmaster Hwang Ki Baik had friends and always hung out with them during tournaments and other functions such as seminars and all that, but I thought it's a cool story about the guy who studied under Jeffries and then went to Hilderbrand and brought out a picture of them drinking out 15 years ago. Shoot, now I'm starting to wonder if my Grandmaster is there drinking in that picture too.

 

[IcemanSK]

I figured I'd bump this thread to see if other's had any thoughts, or different thought than before.


It seems to me that in the US, we're more wrapped up in "what I've done" than giving credit to or honoring our teachers.

 

[hkfuie]

It seems to me that in the US, we're more wrapped up in "what I've done" than giving credit to or honoring our teachers.

You can't do anything well in martial arts that it is not an honor to your teacher(s).

How would a person give credit to or honor their teacher?

 

[terryl965]

You can't do anything well in martial arts that it is not an honor to your teacher(s).

How would a person give credit to or honor their teacher?

By making sure people know who has trained them and that it was just not there personal talent that made them. Point in case a student went on and won a few highly rgarded tournaments and when he was ask who tought him he said he has benn teaching himself for the last 15 years, never mind he was my student for the last ten years and i trained him 2-4 a day for nearly three years before he hit the circuit but it was all him and nothing that I did to help him. When I last saw him all he said was that I did very little in his developement, funny how time changes everything.

 

[hkfuie]

By making sure people know who has trained them and that it was just not there personal talent that made them. Point in case a student went on and won a few highly rgarded tournaments and when he was ask who tought him he said he has benn teaching himself for the last 15 years, never mind he was my student for the last ten years and i trained him 2-4 a day for nearly three years before he hit the circuit but it was all him and nothing that I did to help him. When I last saw him all he said was that I did very little in his developement, funny how time changes everything.

I see your point. I did not know people did that. Sad. Sorry that happened to you.

 

[terryl965]

I see your point. I did not know people did that. Sad. Sorry that happened to you.

It is Ok and I am over it, but you see there is no more loyalty in MA or very few. I am one that believes people and instructor should be remember for what they have done over there careers. I know when I am gone the only ones that will remember me is a few BB that have been with me since they where childern and my sons of course.

 

[Kacey]

You can't do anything well in martial arts that it is not an honor to your teacher(s).

How would a person give credit to or honor their teacher?

By acknowledging their sahbum's influence and help, and by passing on what they've learned to other students. My sahbum took the time to teach me - the best way I can repay that is to teach others what I was taught.

 

[exile]

By acknowledging their sahbum's influence and help, and by passing on what they've learned to other students. My sahbum took the time to teach me - the best way I can repay that is to teach others what I was taught.

I agree with Kacey, I think this is the only substantive way to do it. Public thanks should be given whenever the occasion calls for it. But the real triumph for instructors, their one true vindication, is for the instructional DNA that they transmitted to their students to continue to be passed down to succeeeding generations of students, and the knowledge base that they provided their own students to continue to be expanded and developed into the indefinite future. That's the way great MAists, many of whose names no one will remember, will continue to have impact on their art many generations down the line.

There is a great passage in Pericles' famous funeral oration, given in the 5th century B.C., that really is universal and definitely applies here:

For the whole earth is the sepulchre of famous men, and their story is not graven on stone over their native earth, but lives on far away, without visible symbol, woven into the stuff of other men's lives. For you now it remains to rival what they have done.

And even if the men, and women, are not famous, the same hold true for them as well.

 

[hkfuie]

I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way, but there is absolutely no way I could ever repay my instructors, especially my first instructor. He was not easy, he was not always polite as I would define it, but what I learned from him is incredibly valuable to me and I am very lucky that I happened into his class.

I cannot fathom someone not feeling the same way about their instructor.

But then, I have had the students who treat my class like just another activity, like basketball practice. Only a few feel about me the way I feel about my instructor. I just count myself lucky for those few. Then there are others who never let you know how they feel.

You can never know the full extent of your influence as an instructor.