When Will We Close the Doors?

[Sukerkin]

At one time I used to be quite liberally minded about immigration, believing that in a slow, low, flow, it is beneficial to a society. After all, it should lead to a blend of the good traits of different cultures and make a country stronger and more flexible.

But it is now wildly out of hand here in Britain, destabalising our infrastructure through sheer overpopulation (we're adding about half a million people a year to an island already too densely populated) and fracturing our social contract via large enclaves who do not share our values and, more importantly, have no interest in being a part of 'us' at all. Meanwhile, those who can afford to do so are fleeing the train-wreck, thus making a bad situation worse as they take their skills with them.

Too many are like this fellow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15887286

Enough is enough. The Tories promised they would get a handle on things but they have failed to do so and if they can't do it then just how right-wing do we have to go before we reach the point where the cure is worse than the disease?

 

[billc]

Tsk, Tsk Sukerkin, any moment now someone is going to call you bad names because you are against immigration. At least here in the States it is ILLEGAL immigration that is the problem. You seem to be against all innocent, poor, decent, hardworking, honest, wonderful immigrants and their multicultural heritages. You are about to receive some rough treatment, I hope you are prepared.

 

[billc]

Oh my, I just looked at the article you embedded. You really want to start problems. Do you realize the article may have listed a member of the muslim faith. You are really brave, I salute you.

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye. Illegal immigration is worse, don't mistake me on that. But the pseudo-legal gaming of the system is nearly as bad - it's my taxes that were part paying for this fellows life in which his income was three times what mine is.

It has to stop and the only real way to stop it is to slam the doors and start getting tough about who we want in our country. Euro-zone be damned.

It's not a pleasant thing to say and I don't much like to hear myself say it, I do admit it makes me a little ashamed of myself (well, I AM English after all ). But we just have too many people here now and too many unemployed; a situation which is only going to get worse.

We have ten to twenty million or so too many boots on the ground and, to misquote Scotty, the infrastructure canna take it any more Cap'n!

 

[Makalakumu]

The UK has to pull out of the EU and regain it's sovereignty. How many of your immigration laws are made by unelected EU bureaucrats? Aren't other wealthy EU countries having the same problem?

 

[Tez3]

The UK has to pull out of the EU and regain it's sovereignty. How many of your immigration laws are made by unelected EU bureaucrats? Aren't other wealthy EU countries having the same problem?

No the problem is older than that, it's a throwback to the empire. We have many countries where the people are entitled to come to the UK because they come from former colonies. the problem is compounded because while wanting the immigration numbers down we are also recruiting for the military from Commonwealth countires so we'll allow people in to die for us but we want people wanting to live not to come in. Quite a few Fijians and African soldiers have been killed and maimed in Iraq and Afghanistan now and it will continue. And yes we've had British Muslim soldiers killed too before Billcihak comments.

 

[mook jong man]

In Australia we are getting boat load after boat load of Afghan and Sri Lankan asylum seekers who are supposedly fleeing persecution , but seem to bypass about ten countries to get here.
They then use our court system to launch appeal after appeal , the government puts them in cushy detention centers with all the mod cons , internet access, their own types of food , health care etc.
Meanwhile we have old age pensioners here who are pulling out their own teeth with pliers because they can't afford to go to the dentist , it is just wrong. What's really ironic is that we are sending young Aussie men over to Afghanistan to fight and get killed and the ones that are coming over on the asylum seeker boats are mostly all young single Afghan men , you would think they would want to stay and rebuild there country.

 

[ballen0351]

I wish more americans would look at this topic as intelligently as you did. We all want to help people but at some point we reach saturation. I've seen est for illegals in the US as low as 11 million to as high as 40 million. Our hospitals, court systems, social programs, and school systems can't keep paying for these people. Were broke yet when its brought up your just a racist and want to split up families.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Passports/WhoiseligibleforaBritishpassport/DG_174145


This is who is entitled to come into the UK and hold a passport. There are a lot of non British born people who are entitled to come here and it would be hard to close the door on them having kept it open for decades ( long before the EU).

We also have a great many home grown benefits cheats, the solution is to tighten up considerably how benefits are awarded. A cheat is a cheat.
Many refugees and asylum seekers aren't receiving any UK benefits and are living on charity, a Jewish charity I support looks after a great many refugees and asylum seekers (many Muslim) who have nothing other than the clothes thay stand in, they are given vouchers for food by the Benefits office but no money or housing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/16/asylum-seekers-immigration-poverty

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8048637.stm





http://www.refugee-action.org.uk/information/challengingthemyths2.aspx
[h=2][h=3] "Asylum seekers, refugees and migrants are a drain on the UK economy[/h]Fact: Migrants more than pay their way in our society. Indeed, foreign-born people are a significant economic asset. Without their contribution, the average UK taxpayer would pay an extra penny in every pound in income tax.

A recent Home Office report estimated that foreign-born people – including refugees and asylum seekers - contribute around 10pc more to Government revenues than they receive in Government spending, equivalent to £2.5bn a year – or 1p on the basic rate of income tax (1). Furthermore, Treasury minister Ruth Kelly has stated that the foreign-born population accounted for 10 per cent of UK GDP in 2001 (2). That is five times as much as North Sea Oil (3).

[h=3]The cost of the UK asylum system has spiralled out of control and is a burden we cannot afford[/h]Fact: Less than one tenth of a penny in every pound spent on public services this year will go to asylum seekers. According to the then Home Office Minister Beverly Hughes, the budget for supporting asylum seekers during the forthcoming financial year, 2002-2003, has been set at £434 million – just 0.1 per cent of total projected public spending for the same period (4).
To put this figure into perspective, a recent study by the Oxford Research Group estimated that in 2001, government subsidies to the UK arms export industry cost UK taxpayers far more - up to £990 million (5).
Government figures for the last financial year, 2001-2002, show that the total cost of supporting asylum seekers was £1,094 million. This still represented only 0.28 per cent of total public spending (4).



[h=3]Asylum seekers come to the UK to take advantage of our generous benefits system[/h]Fact: Single asylum seekers in the UK have to survive on £37.77 a week – 30pc below the poverty line – while couples without children and single adults under 25 receive less than £30 a week each.
There are several EU countries, including Ireland, Belgium and Denmark, which offer more financial support than the UK does. A recent report for the European Commission concluded that “push factors” such as war and repression far outweigh “pull factors” such as economic hardship or Europe’s benefits systems in determining why people leave their home countries to seek asylum in the EU (6).


the economic argument [h=3]Asylum seekers, refugees and migrants are a drain on the UK economy[/h]Fact: Migrants more than pay their way in our society. Indeed, foreign-born people are a significant economic asset. Without their contribution, the average UK taxpayer would pay an extra penny in every pound in income tax.
A recent Home Office report estimated that foreign-born people – including refugees and asylum seekers - contribute around 10pc more to Government revenues than they receive in Government spending, equivalent to £2.5bn a year – or 1p on the basic rate of income tax (1). Furthermore, Treasury minister Ruth Kelly has stated that the foreign-born population accounted for 10 per cent of UK GDP in 2001 (2). That is five times as much as North Sea Oil (3).
The cost of the UK asylum system has spiralled out of control and is a burden we cannot afford
Fact: Less than one tenth of a penny in every pound spent on public services this year will go to asylum seekers. According to the then Home Office Minister Beverly Hughes, the budget for supporting asylum seekers during the forthcoming financial year, 2002-2003, has been set at £434 million – just 0.1 per cent of total projected public spending for the same period (4).
To put this figure into perspective, a recent study by the Oxford Research Group estimated that in 2001, government subsidies to the UK arms export industry cost UK taxpayers far more - up to £990 million (5).
Government figures for the last financial year, 2001-2002, show that the total cost of supporting asylum seekers was £1,094 million. This still represented only 0.28 per cent of total public spending (4).

[h=3]Asylum seekers come to the UK to take advantage of our generous benefits system[/h]Fact: Single asylum seekers in the UK have to survive on £37.77 a week – 30pc below the poverty line – while couples without children and single adults under 25 receive less than £30 a week each.
There are several EU countries, including Ireland, Belgium and Denmark, which offer more financial support than the UK does. A recent report for the European Commission concluded that “push factors” such as war and repression far outweigh “pull factors” such as economic hardship or Europe’s benefits systems in determining why people leave their home countries to seek asylum in the EU (6).

[h=3]Most asylum seekers are illegal immigrants who come to the UK to live off benefits or find work on the black market[/h]Fact: Asylum seekers are banned from working, forcing them into the very dependence on benefits for which they are criticised. Refugees and asylum seekers represent a huge, willing and highly skilled, yet untapped workforce. A Home Office report estimates that 168,000 refugees were legally entitled to work as of August 2001 (7). In reality, most refugees in the UK are skilled and eager to work but are prevented from doing so by red tape and barriers like ignorance and prejudice.
Home Office research has found that while there is a higher proportion of qualifications and skills among asylum seekers than among the UK population as a whole, asylum seekers and refugees are consistently the most underemployed group in Britain.
A major survey carried out by Personnel Today in November 2001 found that nine out of ten employers want to take on refugees to meet skills shortages but do not due to ignorance of the law and confusing Home Office paperwork. Almost 30 per cent of refugees surveyed had a university degree and a further quarter possessed A-level or GCSE equivalents. More than 50 per cent had more than three years’ relevant work experience in their country of origin and 61 per cent had more than three months’ work experience in the UK. However, 60 per cent had been unemployed in the UK for more than a year and over a quarter had been out of work for more than three years (8).
This view is shared by the Government’s own advisors. Paul Wiles, director of Home Office research, recently commented: “The public debate over migration into the UK is often oversimplistic and ill-informed, sometimes distorted by myths about the extent to which migrants draw on our welfare state and without sufficient appreciation of the benefits they can bring.” (9)




[h=3]Immigration in the UK is reaching unsustainable levels[/h]Fact: Home Office figures show that in 1999, the net population increase due to migration – including asylum seekers and large sub-groups such as foreign students - was 181,500.
A total of 331,800 non-British people entered the UK in 1999. The same year, a total of 268,500 people emigrated, including 141,099 non-British people. Over the last 20 years, Britain has experienced a total net inflow of just 1.2m (7). In 2001, the total number of people granted settlement in the UK – including successful asylum seekers - was 196,820 (10).








[/h]

 

[Josh Oakley]

Why aren't your asylum seekers allowed to work? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Tez3]

Why aren't your asylum seekers allowed to work? That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think it makes any sense at all, if they work they can look after themselves and if it turns out they aren't genuine they still haven't cost us anything. I presume it's so some types of Brits (the National Front and English Defence League right wing thugs) can't say that asylum seekers aren't taking British jobs.
Many asylums seekers are the intellectuals and better educated, certainly from places like Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, if allowed to work they would contrubute a lot to our economy and our culture.

 

[billc]

the immigration problem, in the countries mentioned here boils down to the usual problem, government trying to do something about it...

 

[Tez3]

Well, that's what we pay them to do, we don't pay Members of Parliament to sit on their backsides pontificating, we expect them to sort problems out. Do you expect governments to do nothing and have people flooding in? Would Americans like it if their government did nothing about anything? We aren't such gobermouches as you seem to be.

 

[granfire]

I don't think it makes any sense at all, if they work they can look after themselves and if it turns out they aren't genuine they still haven't cost us anything. I presume it's so some types of Brits (the National Front and English Defence League right wing thugs) can't say that asylum seekers aren't taking British jobs.
Many asylums seekers are the intellectuals and better educated, certainly from places like Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, if allowed to work they would contrubute a lot to our economy and our culture.

The EU is full of crazy laws and rules.
not an assylum seeker, but back in my hometown a well educated man followed his wife to Germany, she is a nurse, he is a physicist...he could not get work in his field, I 'think' because of the problems academicals face having their degrees and suff acknowledged...now he runs a Doner Kebab booth near my old high school...

 

[Tez3]

The EU is full of crazy laws and rules.
not an assylum seeker, but back in my hometown a well educated man followed his wife to Germany, she is a nurse, he is a physicist...he could not get work in his field, I 'think' because of the problems academicals face having their degrees and suff acknowledged...now he runs a Doner Kebab booth near my old high school...

People think the EU has laws it hasn't, they're called Euromyths, there's even a Wiki page dedicated to this! Many people think it convenient to blame the EU for things.
http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/eu-myths
http://www.kosmopolito.org/2007/11/08/facts-and-myths-in-eu-debates/
Members of EU countries can work anywhere within another EU country. Here if you are non EU or Commonwealth you have always needed a work visa to work here, that includes Americans.

 

[granfire]

People think the EU has laws it hasn't, they're called Euromyths, there's even a Wiki page dedicated to this! Many people think it convenient to blame the EU for things.
http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/eu-myths
http://www.kosmopolito.org/2007/11/08/facts-and-myths-in-eu-debates/
Members of EU countries can work anywhere within another EU country. Here if you are non EU or Commonwealth you have always needed a work visa to work here, that includes Americans.

true, but the man did not come from an EU country.

then again...while I have my best ideas after 10PM, after 2AM I don't usually get them down as well anymore

I am sure the validation of academic titled and degrees is not just an EU problem.

 

[Tez3]

true, but the man did not come from an EU country.

then again...while I have my best ideas after 10PM, after 2AM I don't usually get them down as well anymore

I am sure the validation of academic titled and degrees is not just an EU problem.

That's what I meant when I said he'd need a visa to work in an EU country.

 

[granfire]

well, maybe we missed out on his book learning, he is certainly making good money with his little booth...
kebab is a growing food trend in Germany.

 

[shesulsa]

Suk, I am in the same position as you. The US has defined herself as a humanitarian nation so it is difficult to enforce some of the immigration laws when so very many of our illegal immigrants require sometimes extensive medical care. This care is nearly impossible for them to obtain in their homelands. That said, those homelands have long been suffering what we are now - lack of jobs, bad economy, hoarding rich slashing benefits to the poor.

Our nation gives stipends and grants to "minority populations" just because they are descended from such, they receive free money and benes from the US government. We have an enormous Eastern Bloc population here and where we once welcomed asylum seekers, we now have nothing more to give. The state of California is *BROKE* and it is one of the largest economies in the world.

Even soup kitchens have to close when they have no more to give.

 

[Tez3]

well, maybe we missed out on his book learning, he is certainly making good money with his little booth...
kebab is a growing food trend in Germany.

When I lived in Germany the 'schnellie' was always popular, however where we lived (RAF Laarbruch now closed and a civilian airport, near Dusseldorf) there were many Turkish people who were not popular with the locals but did all the dirty jobs. The local Germans were torn between hating us the RAF and the Turks. We spent loads of money and as I said the Turkish immigrants did the dirty jobs so it was quite a amusing watching the Germans struggle with their emotions.