K
kempograppler
Guest
When your backyard gets too small
When should you open a school?
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
- Start date
R
Rob_Broad
Guest
I have ran a Black Belt club before but it was different than the one you described. The program I had was a commitment for the student to train to get their black belt. I charged an extra $10.00 a month to the members who joined and when they were ready their test had already been prepaid by the money they had paid. I din't have time constraints. But it could save them a lot of money because I had a price increase every other yr.
S
Stickboxer
Guest
First thing I consider is not when my students should open a school, but when they should begin teaching.
I teach in Phase Levels. In Phase Three, advanced students--who are in the higher "gup" levels of traditional styles, like a red and brown belt in TKD--can assist in the instruction of beginners in Phase One.
Upon graduating Phase Three, my students have reached the equivalent of a first degree black belt. In addition to learning more techniques and refining what they know, they also learn about teaching and study the nature of learning (I've taken graduate college courses in education).
Phase Four students become Apprentice Instructors and can assist in training Phase One and Phase Two levels in my school. Keep in mind that Phase Four graduates are approximately the equivalent of TKD's Second Degree Black Belt, where in most major TKD organizations still isn't trusted enough to run their own school.
Students in Phase Five are Associate Instructors, and now can teach up through the Phase Three (black belt) level. Phase Five instructors can open their own school, but remain associated with my academy. Of course, it's actually expected that these teachers forego my curriculum and make up their own. Phase Five graduates are on par with newly-awarded Third Degree Black Belts in TKD, which is what is usually the level where its OK to open your own school.
I teach in Phase Levels. In Phase Three, advanced students--who are in the higher "gup" levels of traditional styles, like a red and brown belt in TKD--can assist in the instruction of beginners in Phase One.
Upon graduating Phase Three, my students have reached the equivalent of a first degree black belt. In addition to learning more techniques and refining what they know, they also learn about teaching and study the nature of learning (I've taken graduate college courses in education).
Phase Four students become Apprentice Instructors and can assist in training Phase One and Phase Two levels in my school. Keep in mind that Phase Four graduates are approximately the equivalent of TKD's Second Degree Black Belt, where in most major TKD organizations still isn't trusted enough to run their own school.
Students in Phase Five are Associate Instructors, and now can teach up through the Phase Three (black belt) level. Phase Five instructors can open their own school, but remain associated with my academy. Of course, it's actually expected that these teachers forego my curriculum and make up their own. Phase Five graduates are on par with newly-awarded Third Degree Black Belts in TKD, which is what is usually the level where its OK to open your own school.
R
RCastillo
Guest
I'm stuck in a situation to where I can't keep students. Two of them were HS people, and left after receiving their Yellow. Another, came with me from when I was teaching privately at home, then came with me to the YWCA, was working on Blue, then never returned. I've been at the Y for 16 months. Yes, people know about it, and it comes out in the paper several times a week!
Others have come by, but promise to show up, and never do. Because of this, I am thinking of switching to TKD(I'm a 3rd in both Kenpo, TKD) The reson being, there are several TKD schools here, and that's what people seem to be interested in. They seem to know nothing of Kenpo!!!
Your opinions please, as I've just about had it with no one to teach, and it's not due to lack of experience. I'm a HS teacher(21 years), spent 11 of those coaching as well. So it's not like I'm a rookie.
Sign me, Frustrated as hell!:soapbox:
Others have come by, but promise to show up, and never do. Because of this, I am thinking of switching to TKD(I'm a 3rd in both Kenpo, TKD) The reson being, there are several TKD schools here, and that's what people seem to be interested in. They seem to know nothing of Kenpo!!!
Your opinions please, as I've just about had it with no one to teach, and it's not due to lack of experience. I'm a HS teacher(21 years), spent 11 of those coaching as well. So it's not like I'm a rookie.
Sign me, Frustrated as hell!:soapbox:
R
Rob_Broad
Guest
I would look at the positives and the negatives to see where things have worked best for you. Did you have more students when you were teaching privately or in group classes could the lack of enthusiam be due to the facilities or the price structure due the facility.
Another thing to look at is the difference between what you have to offer and what TKD has to offer. People naturally tend to gravitate to what is more common and apparently easier, you have to make them see the benefits of the kenpo program.
Try different promotions, have bring a fiend night. Try a contest at carnival or large event where people fill out ballots to win a free month. Give one grand prize of 3 months. Draw that prize publically and then call every other person who enetered the draw and tell them they won a free month. Newspaper advertisements can be expensive and really don't do a lot for you compared to other methods of advertising.
Try working on a referral system with some local businesses. I did this and it was great. I charged $55.00 plus tax for lessons, so I ran a promo of 2 months and uniform for $99.00 plus tax. But I had local businesses send me people to try classes instead of me paying for major advertising. The way this worked was when people rented a video at the store they recieved a 1 week free coupon for lessons, if the person joined after their free week I gave the video store owner $25.00 out of the persons intitial payment of $99.00. The person had to bring in the coupon to get the deal, and the coupon was laid out as a thank you from the business that referred them to me. So the person recieving the coupon felt like they were a valued customer of that business. This promo got me 20 new students in 6 weeks. Yes many quit after their 2 months were up but that is normal for any school.
If you have any questions about other promos email me and I 'll put some stuff together for you. Stay with the Kenpo, the last thing needed is another TKD school in a saturatedmarket.
Another thing to look at is the difference between what you have to offer and what TKD has to offer. People naturally tend to gravitate to what is more common and apparently easier, you have to make them see the benefits of the kenpo program.
Try different promotions, have bring a fiend night. Try a contest at carnival or large event where people fill out ballots to win a free month. Give one grand prize of 3 months. Draw that prize publically and then call every other person who enetered the draw and tell them they won a free month. Newspaper advertisements can be expensive and really don't do a lot for you compared to other methods of advertising.
Try working on a referral system with some local businesses. I did this and it was great. I charged $55.00 plus tax for lessons, so I ran a promo of 2 months and uniform for $99.00 plus tax. But I had local businesses send me people to try classes instead of me paying for major advertising. The way this worked was when people rented a video at the store they recieved a 1 week free coupon for lessons, if the person joined after their free week I gave the video store owner $25.00 out of the persons intitial payment of $99.00. The person had to bring in the coupon to get the deal, and the coupon was laid out as a thank you from the business that referred them to me. So the person recieving the coupon felt like they were a valued customer of that business. This promo got me 20 new students in 6 weeks. Yes many quit after their 2 months were up but that is normal for any school.
If you have any questions about other promos email me and I 'll put some stuff together for you. Stay with the Kenpo, the last thing needed is another TKD school in a saturatedmarket.
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When I left Florida and moved back to West Virginia, I had a choice to make. I could either go back to a TKD environment or go to a friend of mine that has had a school in the area for about 20 years. I found neither idea appealing, so I watched TV for a while. After a while the couch potatoe routine got old and I was itching to get back to it. I was trying to figure out a way to teach with out going to the McDojo and being told " I don't care if you studied this art for 14 years, HERE you are a white belt." That leaves a real sour taste. So while I was sitting around feeling sorry for myself I thought back to what Master Zingg did when he started his school.....He started the Karate classes at the local college. So after a day on the phone and speaking to 12 different people that didn't know anything, I got through to the head of the Health, Physical Education and Recreation department. As it happened, he needed a new instructor fast. I got the job. The first thing I did was scrap the old program that the 19 year old female who had been teaching. The rteturning students were a little disgruntled the first two weeks. I started getting to the meat after they could do basic kicks and punches. A group of the students wanted to continue with me but already had their gym credits. They put up the security deposit and what not for me to open my own place. I started with 6 and am up to 20, 11 months later.
K
KoshoBob
Guest
When I started I wanted to open my own school someday. Now I am happy teaching at my friend's dojo 
He started out teaching at night several places and finally decided to open his own school and a bunch of students came with him.
If I start teaching on my own, it would be a small club style with dues enough to cover expenses.
He started out teaching at night several places and finally decided to open his own school and a bunch of students came with him.If I start teaching on my own, it would be a small club style with dues enough to cover expenses.
G
GouRonin
Guest
Running a school os hard work. At the school I volunteer at I see the hard work he does and appreciate his hard work. I have seen what other schools need to do. People like Renegade :erg: put a lot of time into their school and their association and it shows.
Students who don't respect the time and effort it takes to run a good school need a lumpin'.
Students who don't respect the time and effort it takes to run a good school need a lumpin'.
S
Stickboxer
Guest
I briefly trained in a local Ving Tsun school where the only three empty-hand forms are taught very traditionally. After learning the forms and going through their curriculum, you reach what they say is the equivalent of a black belt within two years.
"OK," I told them, "Once those three forms are learned, when do you begin learning the Wooden Dummy form (108 movements)?"
They told me that's something people learn in their third year of classes.
"And I know there's one more form to be learned in this style--a dragon staff kata. When are students taught that?"
They told me that's learned in the fourth year, but you don't learn it from them... because by then, you should have begun your own school.
"So no one here could teach it? Does anyone here know it?"
No one knew it. They opened this school with the barest experience, and expected students to quickly open their own branch and teach what they didn't really know.
By the way...
A few weeks later, we were going over the most basic form, and I had a technical question about a hand placement near the beginning. I asked every person in the school, from the more experienced students to the several instructors.
"Should my palm be facing out or down?" In other words, I was asking if it was a finger jab, a block, or a palm-thrust.
"What do you think?" each one asked me.
"I think you don't know!!!!!"
And I didn't let the door hit my butt on the way out!
"OK," I told them, "Once those three forms are learned, when do you begin learning the Wooden Dummy form (108 movements)?"
They told me that's something people learn in their third year of classes.
"And I know there's one more form to be learned in this style--a dragon staff kata. When are students taught that?"
They told me that's learned in the fourth year, but you don't learn it from them... because by then, you should have begun your own school.
"So no one here could teach it? Does anyone here know it?"
No one knew it. They opened this school with the barest experience, and expected students to quickly open their own branch and teach what they didn't really know.
By the way...
A few weeks later, we were going over the most basic form, and I had a technical question about a hand placement near the beginning. I asked every person in the school, from the more experienced students to the several instructors.
"Should my palm be facing out or down?" In other words, I was asking if it was a finger jab, a block, or a palm-thrust.
"What do you think?" each one asked me.
"I think you don't know!!!!!"
And I didn't let the door hit my butt on the way out!
K
Kirk
Guest
Now you're talkin! I want to become independently wealthy,
and live at my school! Even help out (although it's running
just fine) by bringing in the "monsters of kenpo" (heheheheh
my term referring to Huk, Trejo, Conatser, The Professor and
Maryanne).
I have been thinking about this opening a school thing and I'll try to be brief with what I've found while addressing some of the previous issues.
1. There are 3 TKD Schools within site of each other across from my house. I was told this was a perfect spot for a Kenpo School. I think this is called differentiation or something and it very well could work although Mr. Castillo has evidence to the contrary. I'd be tempted to advertise why I'm not a TKD school if I were him... I have a few ideas on how to do this but I must save them.
2. I may make black next year. If so I can not run an independent school until I'm a 3rd if I stay with my teacher/assoc. I think. So I have decided that this may be best.
A) Start teaching at a YMCA or Gym somewhere and keep my day job.
B) Start a Black Belt club or only have a Black Belt club and limit my students to 12 or less. I would teach them at high-speed to try to get them to Brown in 2 years when I'm a 2nd. Then to Black by 4yrs when I'm a 3rd and can now be on my own.
C) Open my school with at least 6 of these Black Belts as Teachers. Two for AM workouts. Two for Lunch Cardio. Two for Kids/Early evening beginner stuff and I will teach intermediate and advanced. This gives me a Black Belt teaching every class and lets me hit the 6-8am, 11-1pm, and 5-10pm markets without killing myself.
D) Have a Black Belt club because it can be a win-win I think. I've only been "sold" one once. I didn't sign up, but I learned what they were doing. 1. Big up front payment. 2. No or small test fees. 3. Smaller monthly payments. 4. You don't pay for lessons after your 4th or 5th year. The odds are that if you train hard, you can get to Black in 4 or 5 yrs. If not, then you are close and only a few people will fit this category and it should not cost you any money. For high-turnover people who like to talk a big game and then quit, you get their money up front to invest in your livelihood and your studio... and in a way these "boneheads" are supporting the rest of the clientele.
If this theory works, then I should be able to maintain a "black belt training class" that produces 6 black belts/yr so I can rotate my guys out as they move on. I think it would be good for me and them both if I had an instructor core meeting 4 times/week even for 30 mins and we just really trained with intense focus. This doesn't happen at many schools I see. I see too many where the instructor apparently made 4th by his 30th birthday but you can not make it to 3rd in less than 20years. How does that work anyway?
E) Hire a business manager or get a partner who finances and does the books... I think I know someone for this. I teach, they count beans. They may not even be in the school. I would also like to have a trained salesperson answering all the phone calls and visiting with people when I am on the mat.
I think that if this works I could be happy running a school. I don't know many people making a good living running a school, but I do know people who know other people clearing 10K/mo. I am not in a position to get details on how this is done, but some of it is not entirely honorable.
I also would rely on NAPMA and the Cooper Institute for training/advice and certifications. A primary aim of my school would be to get people in good physical condition and teach them to defend themselves. I'm currently overweight but I don't plan to be much longer. I have already lost 20lbs from my max weight. I would want to be a good example of good health, good teaching and high-proficiency or I would not do it either.
I don't know if all this would work. I will look closely into what is currently working so I don't have to re-invent the wheel but I am a year away from this for sure.
I think it should be possible to make a living. I mean, if I end up doing 60% aerobics and nutritional counseling but still have a full-blown "real" Kenpo program available, I will look at it as having aerobics pay for the Kenpo.
I also think that most successful schools have a LOT of kids and programs for them and I don't think Kenpo is geared to Kids. Mr. Parker and Mr. Planas both seem to think this.
As you can probably tell, this is all theory. But when I signed up I wanted to open a school. Now I think it is a bad idea and I have formulated this theory to see if I can make it happen. I really don't care if it does not work. I think I could give this my best shot, after actually checking with NAPMA and real school owners and picking my instructor's brain etc, and if God wants it to work, then it will. But I'm not interested in promoting anyone even to Yellow Belt if they don't know the material and can not use it properly no matter how much money is involved. What is it? "...my principles, or my honor..." ?
I hope this comes out OK. Feel free to contact me privately if you wish. I'm compiling data on this topic already and I hope it may some day serve me well. I am thinking that if I don't open a school I will "retire" because I'm not sure what there will be for me to do where I'm at. I drive about 20 miles to get to class right now and I'd like to not have to do that. It is about a 25min drive if I hit traffic right.
Thanks everyone.
1. There are 3 TKD Schools within site of each other across from my house. I was told this was a perfect spot for a Kenpo School. I think this is called differentiation or something and it very well could work although Mr. Castillo has evidence to the contrary. I'd be tempted to advertise why I'm not a TKD school if I were him... I have a few ideas on how to do this but I must save them.
2. I may make black next year. If so I can not run an independent school until I'm a 3rd if I stay with my teacher/assoc. I think. So I have decided that this may be best.
A) Start teaching at a YMCA or Gym somewhere and keep my day job.
B) Start a Black Belt club or only have a Black Belt club and limit my students to 12 or less. I would teach them at high-speed to try to get them to Brown in 2 years when I'm a 2nd. Then to Black by 4yrs when I'm a 3rd and can now be on my own.
C) Open my school with at least 6 of these Black Belts as Teachers. Two for AM workouts. Two for Lunch Cardio. Two for Kids/Early evening beginner stuff and I will teach intermediate and advanced. This gives me a Black Belt teaching every class and lets me hit the 6-8am, 11-1pm, and 5-10pm markets without killing myself.
D) Have a Black Belt club because it can be a win-win I think. I've only been "sold" one once. I didn't sign up, but I learned what they were doing. 1. Big up front payment. 2. No or small test fees. 3. Smaller monthly payments. 4. You don't pay for lessons after your 4th or 5th year. The odds are that if you train hard, you can get to Black in 4 or 5 yrs. If not, then you are close and only a few people will fit this category and it should not cost you any money. For high-turnover people who like to talk a big game and then quit, you get their money up front to invest in your livelihood and your studio... and in a way these "boneheads" are supporting the rest of the clientele.
If this theory works, then I should be able to maintain a "black belt training class" that produces 6 black belts/yr so I can rotate my guys out as they move on. I think it would be good for me and them both if I had an instructor core meeting 4 times/week even for 30 mins and we just really trained with intense focus. This doesn't happen at many schools I see. I see too many where the instructor apparently made 4th by his 30th birthday but you can not make it to 3rd in less than 20years. How does that work anyway?
E) Hire a business manager or get a partner who finances and does the books... I think I know someone for this. I teach, they count beans. They may not even be in the school. I would also like to have a trained salesperson answering all the phone calls and visiting with people when I am on the mat.
I think that if this works I could be happy running a school. I don't know many people making a good living running a school, but I do know people who know other people clearing 10K/mo. I am not in a position to get details on how this is done, but some of it is not entirely honorable.
I also would rely on NAPMA and the Cooper Institute for training/advice and certifications. A primary aim of my school would be to get people in good physical condition and teach them to defend themselves. I'm currently overweight but I don't plan to be much longer. I have already lost 20lbs from my max weight. I would want to be a good example of good health, good teaching and high-proficiency or I would not do it either.
I don't know if all this would work. I will look closely into what is currently working so I don't have to re-invent the wheel but I am a year away from this for sure.
I think it should be possible to make a living. I mean, if I end up doing 60% aerobics and nutritional counseling but still have a full-blown "real" Kenpo program available, I will look at it as having aerobics pay for the Kenpo.
I also think that most successful schools have a LOT of kids and programs for them and I don't think Kenpo is geared to Kids. Mr. Parker and Mr. Planas both seem to think this.
As you can probably tell, this is all theory. But when I signed up I wanted to open a school. Now I think it is a bad idea and I have formulated this theory to see if I can make it happen. I really don't care if it does not work. I think I could give this my best shot, after actually checking with NAPMA and real school owners and picking my instructor's brain etc, and if God wants it to work, then it will. But I'm not interested in promoting anyone even to Yellow Belt if they don't know the material and can not use it properly no matter how much money is involved. What is it? "...my principles, or my honor..." ?
I hope this comes out OK. Feel free to contact me privately if you wish. I'm compiling data on this topic already and I hope it may some day serve me well. I am thinking that if I don't open a school I will "retire" because I'm not sure what there will be for me to do where I'm at. I drive about 20 miles to get to class right now and I'd like to not have to do that. It is about a 25min drive if I hit traffic right.
Thanks everyone.
Yari
Master Black Belt
Let me use an answer my teacher used alot: "When your ready..."
A person that has the will to open and keep it open and can attrace people and keep them is ready to open a school.
It's alittle bit catch-22, but what I'm trying to say is it's all will power.
/Yari
A person that has the will to open and keep it open and can attrace people and keep them is ready to open a school.
It's alittle bit catch-22, but what I'm trying to say is it's all will power.
/Yari
C
CraneSpreadWings
Guest
With Karate and Kenpo and JKD and TKD and even a lot of Kuo shu (CMA) there is at least a distinct grading system. sure, some schools will cheat, thats the nature of the dollar, but most 2nd Dan Black Belts out there, no matter what the art, shuold be able to teach the system and make some money at it if they are able...
What about Tai Chi, where the player/practitioner may study for years and years before understanding the breadth of this 20 minute form of movements??? Should one have working knowledge of martial applications and be a push hands monster or can one expect to teach folks after having only internalized the form and perfected it to a certain extent? In Tai Chi there typically is no distinct radin system other than what the Teacher determines on a personal basis. It really ends up being a subjective thing. I studied Yang 24 Taiji with a 75 year old Dutch woman who was teaching very slow, methodical movements to other Senior Citizens to get them moving in a healthy way--I'm not sure she would have known what Fa Jing meant-- I guess its all about-
1. What your Teacher says and when
2. What you want to do with the teaching ie martial, health, etc
3. How much money you want to make doing it
I'd like to teach Tai Chi one day because I love the s*** out of it and I feel I was born to it almost...But with Tai Chi a real teacher may keep you for 7-15 years before directly certifying you to teach the art...In the Chen Valley, Honan Province, they may keep you for 20 years before giving the lineage... I am considering starting a curriculum with another teacher who will move me along a bit faster in an External System just to get the certification...well, not just get certification- theres a world of great learning there that interests me and that Im good at, but I like Tai Chi more....
maybe one day this humble beginner will be able to humble other beginners!!!
What about Tai Chi, where the player/practitioner may study for years and years before understanding the breadth of this 20 minute form of movements??? Should one have working knowledge of martial applications and be a push hands monster or can one expect to teach folks after having only internalized the form and perfected it to a certain extent? In Tai Chi there typically is no distinct radin system other than what the Teacher determines on a personal basis. It really ends up being a subjective thing. I studied Yang 24 Taiji with a 75 year old Dutch woman who was teaching very slow, methodical movements to other Senior Citizens to get them moving in a healthy way--I'm not sure she would have known what Fa Jing meant-- I guess its all about-
1. What your Teacher says and when
2. What you want to do with the teaching ie martial, health, etc
3. How much money you want to make doing it
I'd like to teach Tai Chi one day because I love the s*** out of it and I feel I was born to it almost...But with Tai Chi a real teacher may keep you for 7-15 years before directly certifying you to teach the art...In the Chen Valley, Honan Province, they may keep you for 20 years before giving the lineage... I am considering starting a curriculum with another teacher who will move me along a bit faster in an External System just to get the certification...well, not just get certification- theres a world of great learning there that interests me and that Im good at, but I like Tai Chi more....
maybe one day this humble beginner will be able to humble other beginners!!!
C
CraneSpreadWings
Guest
THat last post may have come off as a bit mercenary...I really am not that way about the teaching idea...if one is going to teach martial arts it should be for the love of the art and the honest desire to further the study of your art...but the ability to support oneself with ones hard earned (and well paid for) learning should not be forgotten as an aspect of serious study in any martial art...
except chang moo do or fake **** super boxing...
except chang moo do or fake **** super boxing...
