My answer to this thread is all in my Thesis, which of course you have Mr. C.
What seperates "Martial" from "Art" today?
- Thread starter Goldendragon7
- Start date
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Iron Dog
Guest
IMO, Zujitsuka is right on the money. Of course it can be interpreted from the artistic view point as well, but he's right. Not everyone can do the martial applications. Some, but not many cannot, or will not do the artistic applications. Good post, I must say that at least the replies have been more of a scholarly bent than a posturing one...
Iron Dog
Iron Dog
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KanoLives
Guest
I like your take on the topic ob2c.
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Kenpomachine
Guest
They're not that martial, they have rules and they train to win an assault by following certain rules. It's goal is championships. Even soccer and rugby have contact, loads of them in their matches, but you won't think of them as martial arts, would you? Still, they're maybe closer to actually being martial than judo or boxing.
On the other side, martial is about SELF-PRESERVATION, no rules applied. Yes, there may be certain rules in a war, like the Geneva convention, but we've just recently had an example that they're not usually followed when in the heat of a battle. And if you ask me what will then differenciate it from a street fight or drunkards brawl, I'll say that it's the DISCIPLINE involved in the martial.
Zujitsuka
Blue Belt
Dude, please....
This is a old, old debate.
Even though boxing and Judo are martial sports, they are A LOT rougher than most martial arts.
If you don't get the chance to practice certain techniques full power (eg. jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hip throws, shoulder throws, etc.), you don't know what will actually work in a violent confrontation. I KNOW that I can stick my power jab in most people's face because I've been able to drill it agains uncooperative opponents - not ukes. I KNOW that I can perform an uchi-mata throw against an uncooperative opponent because I've done it.
By the way, I'm not into boxing for any prize. I do it to make sure that I'm getting some hard contact against skilled opposition. I also play with a few Judo guys because they are constantly reminding me about the law of gravity as earth rushes up and smites me on my back.
To me, it is ALL about self-protection and using the proper methods to prepare me for a violent confrontation.
When is the last time you've been able to use a "real self defense technique" like an eye-poke or a chop to the wind-pipe full force against your training partner?
Also, don't you think that boxers and judoka know these "real self defense techniques" too?
I didn't think so...because you'll either run out of training partners pretty quickly or someone will seriously hurt you.
If you ever in your life doubt the effectiveness of Boxing or Judo, I encourage to to visit you local Judo dojo or Boxing gym. They will be more than happy to enlighten you.
As far as rugby or football goes, those guys are use to impact, they know how to dish out some hurt, and they have "killer instinct" so they will probably be a formidable opponent. They are use to the adrenaline rush while most martial artists aren't.
Before you make any judgments, at least qualify yourself by saying that you've been there and have done that first. Don't assume anything.
Peace & blessings,
Both Kenpomachine and Zujitsuka make some valid points.
Things like sport competition (be it grapppling, boxing, sparring, NHB and etc.), self defense techniques, and forms does not make a ballanced Martial Art. A Martial Arts primary focus should be realistic self-defense. The above mentioned tools should not be the primary focus, but used as training tools to help develop an individuals ability to defend themselves. Even "flash" techniques can be used to develop agility, which can come in handy when agility is needed to survive.
My opinion of key elements needed for a balanced Martial Art:
Things like sport competition (be it grapppling, boxing, sparring, NHB and etc.), self defense techniques, and forms does not make a ballanced Martial Art. A Martial Arts primary focus should be realistic self-defense. The above mentioned tools should not be the primary focus, but used as training tools to help develop an individuals ability to defend themselves. Even "flash" techniques can be used to develop agility, which can come in handy when agility is needed to survive.
My opinion of key elements needed for a balanced Martial Art:
- Primarily focuses on self defense from a realistic point of view. Should address this from all ranges of combat and environmental conditions.
- Some form of light and hard sparring to develop the ability to deal with a moving and resisting opponent (this can include boxing, grappling, NHB, and etc.)
- Using other tools to develop agility, spontinaity, speed, power, balance, timing and etc. This can include bag work, forms, SD techs, or other traditional and/or non-traditional drills.
Zujitsuka
Blue Belt
I feel you Zoran, but I was responding to the initial post of what separates 'martial' from 'art'.
Some styles have martial potential but are not necessarily martial. For instance, it is just my opinion, but I don't really consider Ki Aikido a martial art because of the lack of working with resisting, uncooperative partners. Keeping it real, the average person will not let you walk up to them and grab their wrist. However, if it is set up with atemi, now you're talking.
Also, the Tai Chi that I see senior citizens doing in concert in the park near job in the morning has martial potential, but is not necesarilly a martial art.
Again, it is all about that necessary ingredient (sine qua non) - sparring against resisting opponents.
Jigoro Kano remindend traditional Jujitsuka about this more than a hundred years ago. Bruce Lee reminded us again in the 60s and 70s. More recently, the Gracies gave martial artists a wake up call.
We're being constantly reminded about putting the martial back into the martial arts.
"Ya'll musta forgot!" - Roy Jones, Jr. (Pound-for-Pound best pro boxer in the world)
Some styles have martial potential but are not necessarily martial. For instance, it is just my opinion, but I don't really consider Ki Aikido a martial art because of the lack of working with resisting, uncooperative partners. Keeping it real, the average person will not let you walk up to them and grab their wrist. However, if it is set up with atemi, now you're talking.
Also, the Tai Chi that I see senior citizens doing in concert in the park near job in the morning has martial potential, but is not necesarilly a martial art.
Again, it is all about that necessary ingredient (sine qua non) - sparring against resisting opponents.
Jigoro Kano remindend traditional Jujitsuka about this more than a hundred years ago. Bruce Lee reminded us again in the 60s and 70s. More recently, the Gracies gave martial artists a wake up call.
We're being constantly reminded about putting the martial back into the martial arts.
"Ya'll musta forgot!" - Roy Jones, Jr. (Pound-for-Pound best pro boxer in the world)
Originally posted by Zoran
I sort of put Martial Artists in 3 categories:
The Martial Artist - A practioner who is more concerned with the asthetic or artistic side of the Martial Arts. Many of these types never explore or try to validate the self defense theories that they teach/learn. Then there are some that are more concerned with the intellectual side of it all. Really missing the point.
The Martial Artist - Now this practioner is more concerned with what works. With no concern for tradition, asthetics, principles of motion or style. Not always a bad thing though.
The Martial Artist - This is the balanced person. They may lean a little more towards one side or the other, but they still keep a certain balance of both sides. A person who is concerned with what works as well as the mental and/or artistic side of it.
Actually, there is one more type. It's the "I am so full of crap and I've got my head firmly embedded so far up my...um...Artist".
Well, you just saved me the effort of typing all that out. Thank you for that, I couldn't agree more!
--Dave
Truthfully, all any of us is trying to do is to deal with some form of violence, that some lowlife is attempting to bring upon us or our family, or even someone that we can see needs our help.
If our art/ style doesn't give us the knowledge or the options that we need, to deal with these acts of violence, then it is more ART than martial.
If on the other hand we deal with said violence, far too decisively, ie a guy tries to steal your kids icecream, and you kill him, then I think we have gone way too MARTIAL .
If we can deal with the violence decisively, without losing our cool. If we can do it by using only the reasonable or required amount of force. If we can deal with the attack, and then go home to our families knowing in our hearts that we did only that which we HAD to do, without anger or rage. Then I believe that we are trained in a MARTIAL ART!
I have never believed that training in martial arts will make me a better fighter. What I do believe is that it will give me a greater array of options. The way I train, will decide how I get to use those options. The more options I have, the better my chance of survival, this decides if my art/style is a martial art. My preparedness, to use these options is what determines if I am a Martial Artist or not.
--Dave
:asian:
If our art/ style doesn't give us the knowledge or the options that we need, to deal with these acts of violence, then it is more ART than martial.
If on the other hand we deal with said violence, far too decisively, ie a guy tries to steal your kids icecream, and you kill him, then I think we have gone way too MARTIAL .
If we can deal with the violence decisively, without losing our cool. If we can do it by using only the reasonable or required amount of force. If we can deal with the attack, and then go home to our families knowing in our hearts that we did only that which we HAD to do, without anger or rage. Then I believe that we are trained in a MARTIAL ART!
I have never believed that training in martial arts will make me a better fighter. What I do believe is that it will give me a greater array of options. The way I train, will decide how I get to use those options. The more options I have, the better my chance of survival, this decides if my art/style is a martial art. My preparedness, to use these options is what determines if I am a Martial Artist or not.
--Dave
:asian:
Zujitsuka
Blue Belt
The caps are mine to highligt this man's wisdom.
Peace & blessings,
Kalicombat
Green Belt
My perspective has always been that I train to handle my BIZZNESS when the time comes. I started in Isshinryu when I was 9 because I was a fat kid, with a speach impediment, and afraid of my own shadow. I was an easy target for ridicule and harrassment. I was pretty antisocial, and consumed with making people pay for using me as the brunt of their jokes. I didnt know about the "art" side of the house, and still not real familiar with it, 28 years later. I commend those that can knockout a musical form with perfection, and those that seek some kind of enlightenment through their "journey", but I walk a different path. My friends and family, those that know me best, have always said that I am a soldier with no war. I prefer to think of it as a soldier ready for war. I dont seek altercation, but when it presents itself, I usually jump right in. Having two kids, a wife, and a life, now has simmered the fires some, but there is still an amber glowing in there. As far as art, I display it proudly on my shoudlers, back, chest, and rib cage.
Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman
Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman
For a minute there I thought you were singing the song that used to be mine. I wasn't fat and never had the speech impediment, but I too used to jump at shadows. I used to get picked on a lot when I was young, but eventually found that I had an ability to absorb pain in such a way that I could look tough. You know, the old punch in the mouth where you just whip your head back to face the guy and say something like, "Is that the best you got, little man?". Then I started learning how to fight. At the ripe old age of 23 I started serious training in the arts. I fully understand the line about being a soldier without a war, that was me until about 3 years ago.
At the age of 26 I got really sick and nearly died, I took up American Kenpo, as soon as I was well enough to train. I also developed an attitude of "The World owes me something!"
My life turned into a bucket of crap! But it wasn't my fault, it had to be everyone elses fault. It was the fact that there were too many foreigners here, it was because of our government, it was my wife it was everything but me!
Around 3 or 4 years ago I met my instructor in Ryukyu Kempo, and I would have to say he is the only man I have ever met that I am in total awe of.
The first thing I came to learn was, to change the way I live, I had to change the way I think! I learnt the truth behind the phrase, "Respect all, Fear none!"
Respect begins inside, now I no longer practise Self Defense , I practise Life Defense .
I'm not saying my way is right for you, but I am saying it might be worth a look.
Either way, have a great life. You only get one so you should make the most of it!
--Dave
:asian:
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
- Thread Starter
- #36
As the saying goes.... "There are many roads that lead to Rome".
What it doesn't say, is that along the way there are many fine restaurants that serve food, some are unique and have an exceptional specialty and flair, yet others just serve typical food. Each serve it's purpose, but we all have different likes and dislikes about each establishment. You will tend to revisit or frequent those that meet your needs and fancy.
:asian:
K
Kenpomachine
Guest
Which maybe means they have a problem in their training?
Again, what is it that makes you think that you can train these in a martial art full power? You have protections to train full power against a person and bags, and pads...
No, I haven't done it a lot, but I've done. But they have theire rules and if you don't follow them they can have problems too.
Agreed.
I'm not sure I'll used them in the street if I can avoid it. Never got into touble in the street
You think that's all the self-defense techniques, really? By the way, I didn't talked about self defense, but self preservation in a war when refereing to martial.
I've played football (learnt front kick there), and many other sports, and I've practiced a "martial sport" before. Whose assuming what?
Please, don't read between lines. Sports are not bad, martial is not bad, and art is not bad. Just I want to make sure that there is the martial and the art side in what I'm training. And yes, we hit in the self defense, though not hard when hitting vital points or the face.
:asian:
Zujitsuka
Blue Belt
KenpoMachine, refer to GoldenDragon's initial post of what separates 'martial' from 'art'.
You and I actually agree that a 'martial art system' should address other things besides 'fighting' (like ethics, social responsibility, and such).
Folks have to be honest about what they are calling 'martial' though. Because if they aren't feeling adrenaline rushes during the martial portions of their training, and/or are not being attacked with unrehearsed attacks, that is not really 'martial'. It is just kata - art. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but kata isn't fighting because fights aren't predictable. Bags, ukes, and boards don't hit you back.
You and I actually agree that a 'martial art system' should address other things besides 'fighting' (like ethics, social responsibility, and such).
Folks have to be honest about what they are calling 'martial' though. Because if they aren't feeling adrenaline rushes during the martial portions of their training, and/or are not being attacked with unrehearsed attacks, that is not really 'martial'. It is just kata - art. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but kata isn't fighting because fights aren't predictable. Bags, ukes, and boards don't hit you back.
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KanoLives
Guest
You have to look at kata as a way to train in fluid body motion, fluid strike combos, breathing technique, and learning good balance. Cause we all know that without good balance or any of these aspects learned through kata you don't stand a chance in a real life situation. There's more to kata then just looking good and going through the motions. Anyone can do that. Now if you do it and take these things out of it as training then you are a more well blanced fighter than the next guy. Kata is part art but it is also part training and I hope no one forgets that.
:asian:
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Kenpomachine
Guest
Well, and I said in a previous post that Zoran stated the difference between martial and art quite well.
Ukes should try to hit you back now and then and are encouraged to do so specially when you're not doing good and are just slapping them.
Now, it depends on how you train, doesn't it?
Besides what ChineseKenpoAl said about kata (don't forget self defense techniques in short 3 and long3-7), we train to feel the adrenaline rush, with technique lines (many variations in here), free attacks from behind, being reminded now and then to throw the attack with different intensities, or even at different heights, and not stopping when someone forgets the attack to a technique and then attacks from the other side...
So adding to this martial side the aesthetics, you have the martial art. But you have to have both in a martial art. And though soccer is quite martial (it has a strategy, two teams fighting to win over the other and lots of contact, which is something that is not present in some modern day wars), I still wouldn't call it a martial art.
