What is kenpo lacking?

[Mr. Grimm]

undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?

You've obviously talked to the wrong people. Don't think everybody teaches Kenpo the same way eh! BTW, have you seen the extensions?

Dark Lord

 

[Mr. Grimm]

No I Am But A Newbie. If Takedowns Are Important Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?

 

[Ceicei]

NOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?

What is lacking is not necessarily because of the art itself. There is no perfect art. What is lacking is if a student do not realize that the techniques are basically templates--we learn how the basics function, how motion works together. It is ciritical and paramount that a student learn how to be flexible with adapting and be willing to change quickly.

If the basics are taught as a very strong foundation and we have learned plenty of techniques, then we can use the principles taught that can be applicable in almost any situation. A student should not be trapped in the idea that certain techniques are good only for certain situations. If a situation happens that a technique hasn't been learned yet for that, it isn't time to panic. It's the time to call upon our understanding of motion--how blocks, strikes, locks, and parries work and how the physical body responds. Utilize principles such as opposing forces, marriage of gravity, contouring, etc.

Kenpo is much more than just forms and techniques.

You asked why takedowns/ground fighting isn't taught earlier to a newbie? The newbie needs to learn as much as possible regarding principles and concepts of motion. They are ingrained in every technique/form/set, but we learn them stage by stage as we become more proficient and aware.

We tend to look at the outside first before we look at the inside (the mechanics of motion).

- Ceicei

 

[Michael Billings]

undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?

On behalf of the Moderation and Admin team, I just wanted to welcome you to MartialTalk Mr. Grimm. Hope you enjoy the Kenpo Community.

There are lots of threads on this topic, both in the EPAK forums and Kenpo General. I am not sure what you are asking here. I do not see any lack of takedowns, strikedowns, buckles, sweeps, balance disruptions (by destroying the opponent's base), etc. Long Form 5 is all takedowns or strikedowns. As Clyde, the Dark Kenpo Lord (in whom the Force is strong), pointed out, the Black Belt Extensions bring many, many more takedowns into the system at that level.

Once again ... welcome,
--Michael Billings
--MT Moderator--

 

[gman]

Grimm as a newbie to kenpo I would tend to agree with what you think you are seeing. I think the idea is to wait until you have a good grasp on fighting while standing. It is funny how all the proper stances go out the window in sparring. I have been trying to "use" kenpo when sparring instead of well, what ever it is I'm doing. Sometimes my sifu talks of thing that are going to follow a tech and I can see lots of jui jitsu in that. So be patient it only gets better. If you are looking for a strickly ground fighting style you might want to look at some of the grappling arts. I also train in BJJ but nearly everyone there trains in some striking art also. Most ground fighters will tell you that only ground fighting skills in the street might not do the trick. If you're looking for the sports aspect BJJ is a lot of fun but also very street practicle.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

No I Am But A Newbie. If Takedowns Are Important Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?

Takedowns are important, but it depends on who you're getting instruction from as to what they'll teach you, and at what level.

Dark Lord

 

[Touch Of Death]

No I Am But A Newbie. If Takedowns Are Important Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?

You are expected to master falling yourself before you go around tossing people to the ground. There are lots of things we don't teach to "beginners".
Sean

 

[Michael Billings]

You are expected to master falling yourself before you go around tossing people to the ground. There are lots of things we don't teach to "beginners".
Sean

An excellent point that I did not mention - duh? The brain train passed the station ---

-Michael

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Mr. Grimm:

This is my favorite topic on this forum. I've participated in many arguments here and elsewhere over the last year. Let me try and paraphrase and summarize:

Kenpo is not lacking.
1) Those who have truly learned Kenpo concepts and principles can apply them in situations not specifically addressed by the standard Kenpo technique curriculum.
2) Those who train at the top Kenpo schools do indeed learn to apply these principles in a variety of situations.
3) Many of those who claim that Kenpo is lacking have not developed a deep understanding of the principles and concepts, did not receive the best instruction, have not thought through their material thoroughly, and/or do not train with enough intensity and variation.
4) The longer and deeper you delve into Kenpo, the better you will be able to apply it in any situation and fill in any perceived gaps.

Kenpo is lacking.
1) Kenpo does not have adequate ground work or grappling technique. Kenpo concepts and principles can be applied on the ground, but the techniques do not directly translate. Additional techniques and training time is necessary to fight successfully on the ground.
2) Kenpo training is not alive enough. Kenpoists spend too much time on Kata practice, doing static drills, and rehearsing pre-arranged techniques on cooperating partners.
3) Martial Arts have changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Kenpo has not changed dramatically and many schools still teach the same curriculum as they did 20 years ago.

I suggest you search the Kenpo General and EPAK forums and review some old threads...but I think I've captured the gist of it here.

 

[MJS]

No I Am But A Newbie. If Takedowns Are Important Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?

The new student is gonna have enough to worry about, without worrying about a sweep and takedown. Those things are more advanced moves and should be shown to the student at the proper belt level. You cant expect the new student to learn everything. If that was the case, dont you think that there would be some overload on the students part?? Having the student learn the stances, footwork, and basic blocks, punches and kicks is the best place to start IMO.

Mike

 

[MJS]

undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?

Sure, there is some grappling in Kenpo. However, there is a big difference if you're comparing it to BJJ, which of course, is an art in and of itself. You can apply Kenpo to the ground to an extent. After a VERY long time, and with thanks to DKL, I'm starting to realize this!! As I posted on another thread, I was recently doing some grappling and actually found 2 Kenpo techs. that I was able to apply.

I'm a huge fan of crosstraining, and trying to be as well rounded as possible. While I have never intended for anyone to leave Kenpo and take up Judo or BJJ, I do believe that ideas and concepts can be taken from those arts and added to your Kenpo.

Mike

 

[Mr. Grimm]

Mr. Grimm:

This is my favorite topic on this forum. I've participated in many arguments here and elsewhere over the last year. Let me try and paraphrase and summarize:

Kenpo is not lacking.
1) Those who have truly learned Kenpo concepts and principles can apply them in situations not specifically addressed by the standard Kenpo technique curriculum.
2) Those who train at the top Kenpo schools do indeed learn to apply these principles in a variety of situations.
3) Many of those who claim that Kenpo is lacking have not developed a deep understanding of the principles and concepts, did not receive the best instruction, have not thought through their material thoroughly, and/or do not train with enough intensity and variation.
4) The longer and deeper you delve into Kenpo, the better you will be able to apply it in any situation and fill in any perceived gaps.

Kenpo is lacking.
1) Kenpo does not have adequate ground work or grappling technique. Kenpo concepts and principles can be applied on the ground, but the techniques do not directly translate. Additional techniques and training time is necessary to fight successfully on the ground.
2) Kenpo training is not alive enough. Kenpoists spend too much time on Kata practice, doing static drills, and rehearsing pre-arranged techniques on cooperating partners.
3) Martial Arts have changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Kenpo has not changed dramatically and many schools still teach the same curriculum as they did 20 years ago.

I suggest you search the Kenpo General and EPAK forums and review some old threads...but I think I've captured the gist of it here.

Well I am glad i was able to get input. It's just that i have never seen any kenpo schools actually on the ground struggling to manipulate and counter manipulate each. I realize there are techniques that have a take down move but are there any that start you off in the prone position with someone having you locked up?

 

[Nick Ellerton]

Ok i no for a fact that Kenpo does not generally have take downs but strike downs, and what is it lacking, people to whom are 100 percent satisfied with the art, if you dont like the art then get out of it, it is very simple.
cheers.
Nick.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Well I am glad i was able to get input. It's just that i have never seen any kenpo schools actually on the ground struggling to manipulate and counter manipulate each. I realize there are techniques that have a take down move but are there any that start you off in the prone position with someone having you locked up?

You say you're a newbie to the art, how is it you've seen so much?

In the prone position locked up, kinda defeats the purpose of the whole Kenpo system don't ya think? They have to take you to the ground and lock you up before Kenpo kicks in? You may as well get yourself enrolled in a good BJJ club if that's what you want to learn.

Dark Lord

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Ok i no for a fact that Kenpo does not generally have take downs but strike downs, and what is it lacking, people to whom are 100 percent satisfied with the art, if you dont like the art then get out of it, it is very simple.
cheers.
Nick.

Well said.

Dark Lord

 

[MisterMike]

Well, seems to me there aren't any ground fighting techniques originally in Kenpo. Looks like you have to find a school that has created some or find a ground fighting style.

Of course a Kenpo school that creates its own techniques for ground fighting is very "taboo" because it seems there will always be those who think everything has to come out of Infinite Insights or those Manuals.

 

[pete]

Of course a Kenpo school that creates its own techniques for ground fighting is very "taboo" because it seems there will always be those who think everything has to come out of Infinite Insights or those Manuals.

don't fret mr. mike, as there are probably more of us who do not!

 

[Mr. Grimm]

Ok i no for a fact that Kenpo does not generally have take downs but strike downs, and what is it lacking, people to whom are 100 percent satisfied with the art, if you dont like the art then get out of it, it is very simple.
cheers.
Nick.

I enjoy kenpo but I wanted to get other peoples opinions on what they think is missing. I'm not in trying to compare kenpo at all to BJJ. But what what if we at someday end up on the ground due to a fatal flaw. Thats where the "condition and guts" take over I guess. So now I ask, of all the techniques, basics, counter grabs etc., what do you guys think should be used in a prone position with the exceptions of biting, clawing, pinching. What portions of the kenpo background do you think could be used?

 

[Goldendragon7]

The lack of visual aids..... I think we can use a ton more of these.... many people are very visual and these aids would certainly be a great help.

:asian: