What IS a Ninja?

[Cryozombie]

There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.

I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...

Historically what WERE the ninja really... and what are they today?

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.

I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...

Historically what WERE the ninja really... and what are they today?

I have read that through circumstance the ninja were of the lowest caste. To adhere to the basic honor system meant certain death; so, they were willing to take on jobs not becomming a Japanese. different groups mastered different things. Some were herbalists specializing in poisons, some were cat burglurs, some probably made cheap weapons for sale to non samurai, and a select few dawned the black outfits and assassinated whomever they were payed to assassinate. The word ninja means unseen or comoflage depending on whom you talk to. Unseen is more fitting as far as I'm concerned, because, its more fitting to the low caste stuation they found themselves in.
Sean

 

[heretic888]

There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.

In "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions", Hatsumi has a conversation between Takamatsu and himself in which Takamatsu states his grandfather, Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu, was a samurai from Iga. The Toda family, if we go by the Togakure ryu lineage, has been involved in the "ninja arts" for several generations.

This, of course, is based on many assumptions --- including the veracity of the lineage in question.

I've come across a few things about the Iga no Bushi (the fellerz we call "ninja") in English (don't speak Japanese), and they are mostly categorized as jizamurai --- which is most definately *not* of "the lowest caste".

I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...

Well... just ask yourself this: do you think the Ninpo of 300 years ago was taught the same as the Ninpo of 600 years ago??

Things change.

The word ninja means unseen or comoflage depending on whom you talk to.

As before, I don't speak Japanese --- but I have a Japanese/English dictionary in front of me right now and the word 'shinobu' (the verb form of 'shinobi') doesn't mention anything at all about 'unseen' or 'camouflage'. The definition it gives is "to endure, to persevere, to be patient".

*shrugs* Laterz.

 

[Taimishu]

I dont know there has been a lot written about Ninja and hollywood has a lot to answer for.
I dont think that there is much doubt that Ninja existed and do exist today. The mystical/superhuman powers attributed to them is most likely exageration.

As far as I can tell they seem to be based more like mercenarys and would have come from all levels not just the lowest caste, though it might be the only way an honest lower caste thug can get on in Japan, I dont know.
That they could do some amazing things seems to be beyond question. It must be nice to dissapear in a cloud of smoke at times,(chemical not supernatural) and the clothing makes sense. Who in their right mind dresses in dayglo colours when out at night and not wanting to be seen?
As for weapons probaly they all had their favorites and like good troops were trained in most if not all common weapons. It seems possible that they even invented some of there own weapons for specific targets.

Poison drugs stealth makes sense if you dont subscribe to some code of "honour" and it seems to me that all honour will get you is dead. Look at modern day "special forces" they seem to be the nearest to modern day Ninja indeed it may well be that Japans special forces have some Ninja or Ninja trained foces somewhere.

So what is the truth? beats the hell out of me but it is great to watch the Hollywood version and wonder.

Just my thoughts on the subject

David

 

[Frank Anford]

Has anyone ever heard about any people using these concepts for evil purposes? Like in modern day warfare or covert operations of other countries?

F.A.

 

[heretic888]

*snickers* Define 'evil'.

 

[Cryozombie]

*snickers* Define 'evil'.

I'm Evil.

If you look up evil in the dictonary it often says "See Also Technopunk"

 

[r.severe]

I wrote this in 10/2000.
I am on my own musha shugyo, a ninja in the year 2004.
Please take the time to read it.
I feel it will explain what I am and understand to be a warrior or ninja.
..............................................................................................

The warrior tradition dates back long ago before records were kept, from koku (empty space). Humans are animals of survival, war and conquest. As far back as you can research the pages of history, walls of caves, scrolls of martial traditions you will find the survival methods we call combat. Human’s against environment, animals, and each other, just survival. A fact we must remember in these days of ‘911’, evangelist, religion and 7-11 stores wish to protect us from harm.
Ok now onward with my silly note. At first you see me, Ralph as a simple, loud, silly, over weight, rude, and powerful looking human. Oh yes some of you see me as controlling. It’s just hard to image that in the shadow of this big body lies the information and wisdom of the musha shugyo. But after you get the picture you begin to realize I’m the inheritor of a living warrior tradition that can be dated back over 1,000 years of history. Wow, sounds neat! Well it is. And I’ve asked myself what it really is that I’m guiding others in and have the authority to pass on such life style as well from time to time. So this is what I’ve found out for myself and have been told by my seniors. Nothing new is written here but this can be taken as my point of view. Try to read between the lines and find the true meaning of what I’m trying to say here in this note. It takes much more than mere talent to become a warrior. It takes action and effort. These are the areas of training I’m experiencing on my musha shugyo.
Ningu kusarifundojutsu (chain and weight), kagi nawajutsu (hook and cord), hojojutsu (cord tying), kyoketsushogejutsu (sickle and cord with a weight), kusarigamajutsu (sickle with a chain and weight), nawanagejutsu (rope throwing) are the skills of the flexible tools. These tools can be used for self-protection, survival, escape, and tying up your foe (hobakujutsu). The training can enhance the natural flow of the body to improve over all taijutsu. The wonderful circular motion of these types of tools helps the human understand the natural pattern of birth and rebirth. The flow build using these can enhance the strength of your personal defense. The hira ichimonji, hoko no kamae come from this training.
Kyojitsu tenkan ho, divine sight is the approach of thinking. A strategy for winning that is based on the philosophy of deception strategy. The method of presenting falsehood as truth. Truth and false, false and truth. A concept of altering yourself and what is around you with psychological skills to bring about winning over your adversary. Many find this to be quite abstract in our life style of the 20-century. This does mean to have excuses of why you cannot and thinking it is ok because you know you are lying. This is a non-pure heart that is out of control. Lying is normal in our society and excepted as a way of life to hide the weakness and sickness of the heart. The true way is nintai jisei (perseverance and self-control). The righteous life of a human is not to others but to his own heart. “The way of the warrior is death” written in ‘Hagakure’ an old Japanese text. This idea of knowledge is the base of Togakure ryuha ninpo. In shin tonkei, do the most with little effort.
Suijutsu is the skill of swimming. To enter silently, survival of an over turned boat, for life saving another from drowning, use of boats, floats, water crossing with equipment, and combat with weapons and unarmed in the water. Good physical attributes help in the skills of suijutsu. This is also good therapy for injured bodies in recovery.
Hensojutsu (disguise) and gisojutsu (impersonation). These skills give you the ability to be someone you’re not. To survive or to help others survive. This is beyond mere costume or the ninja shinobi shozoku. It is a way of life, hengen kashi (immersion in the illusion). Personality traits, different craftsman skills, entertainment skills, body movement, reaction skills, and even change of sexual like’s and dislikes can change your identity. You train in the areas of being a merchant, tradesman, musician, priest, entertainer, showman, wandering person, and teacher. This gives you the skills to blend in, to become invisible. Onshinjutsu or onshin tongyo no jutsu (art of invisibility, or disappearing) is like the modern day camouflage to the warrior. This can be broken down into omote goton no ho (wood, fire, earth, metal, water) and ura goton no ho (person, bird, animal, insect, fish) which together called jutton. Goton santon no ho (30 methods of escape). More of a comprehensive name would be tenchijin santon no ho. Tenton (sun, stars, moon, cloud, fog, thunder, lightning, wind, rain, snow). Chiton (wood, grass, fire, smoke, earth, house, metal, stone, water, boiling water). Jinton (males, females, old people, infants, nobility, poor, birds, animals, insects, fish). Many humans today use this as a lying system to their own heart. To blind the truth of their own weakness and excuses. This is not the true art and should not be used as hensojutsu. Ihen, Kage no kamae can be better understood with this training.
Ningu bojutsu is the skill of using the stick as a tool for self-defense and survival. This can be a 6-inch, 12-inch, 3 feet, 4 feet, 5 feet, and 6 feet stick. This is the ningu no kihon (base of ninja tools) of the warrior’s training. It creates a strong kihon (base) for all other tools for self-protection. The training of these types of tools gives the human the skills of working a stiff tool as a flexible one. The skills learned from these sticks lead to a better understanding of taijutsu. Hira ichimonji, shizen, and ichimonji no kamae are the postures enhanced by the use of the bojutsu.
Ningu shurikenjutsu is the skill of throwing blades of all shapes and sizes. The main ones are the senban (disk), bo (rod), and the hira shuriken (flat). Also the ax, spear, shovel, sticks, and rocks can be thrown. This area is important to the warrior because it gives him special tools to use in escaping an attack without contact against his foe. The use of metsubushi and tetsubishi are also part of the art of throwing things to escape. Jumonji no kamae, ukemi and sabaki can be enhanced by this type of training.
Chimon is the skill of geography. Knowledge of the terrain can have a great importance to the warrior. Use of this skill can aid in escape, where to build your home, to get to an area quickly, grow food and concealment. Gotonpo, is the use of the natural elements to escape; wood, rocks, soil, land, and water. This training helps you understand nature better. Many humans live in the city with little or no knowledge or wisdom of nature. It takes years of study in the woods to have a good understanding of chimon. Seiza, hiza and fudoza no kamae are worked on a great deal with chimon. The attitude training is unmatched by any other training method during woodland experience.
Seishin teki kyoyo is the skill of the spiritual training or personal clarity. Your heart has to be pure and righteous. You can say this ninpo training is to polish one’s character. (The heart; benevolence, righteousness, propriety, wisdom, and sincerity. The attitude; thoroughness in loyalty, self-love and filial piety). It is important to study continuously in meditation, in (going to, darkness, female, negative), yo (going from, lightness, male, positive), sanmitsu (3 secrets) and sanshin to develop the understanding of the dharma (law) of nature and hachimon tonkojutsu (prediction of the future). Warriors have to know the truth in their heart, weakness, and personal powers. This is where the kihon happo comes into the training. Kosshi sanpo refers to the tenchijin and sanshin and the torite goho is the path of enlightenment is the gogyo (five deeds). Bushin wa-o motte totoshi-to nasu “the martial heart holds harmony as sacred”. The ways of Tenchijin gives us 3 different ways of understanding our relationship with the universe. Ten, heaven, gives us the skill to work our environment influencing it to change. Chi, earth, gives us the skills to change ourselves to influence our environment. Jin, man, gives us the skills to leave the environment the same but to create the impression, illusion, to cause alternating realities to influence others view point. This is true kyojitsu ten kan ho. Something to ponder when dealing with me first hand. Don’t forget I live this and not just train it in a passive form. Life is way to short and it’s fun!
Ningu sojutsu is the skill of spear. The warrior studies the methods of different types and lengths of spears. The are of throwing was also important. This tool was more for battlefield combat because of the over all length. Bojutsu training should come before sojutsu and shinobi zue.
Ninpo taijutsu is the skill of using the body unarmed. Skills of dakentaijutsu (striking), jutaijutsu (grappling), taihenjutsu (rolls, footwork, jumping), nejutsu (ground skills), shinobi iri (stealth and entering) shikoro- handsaw, nata- machete, kagi- hook, kama- sickle, and kiri- small drill were the kaiki (breaking and entering tools), junan taiso (stretching, cardiovascular, conditioning), kiaijutsu sansei hiden no ho (3 main types of hidden voice skills)-(shosei “ya” breaking his spirit, kosei “aa” I’m going to attack, chisei “towa” stop hit), muto dorijutsu (weaponless defense), and hokojutsu (walking). These training methods help in keeping the warrior healthy and strong. The personal maintenance program I use is in your booklet, will help you in making a better life style. I also covered this in my end of year letter 11/8/00. This type of training is non-sport. It is the training of life and not of combat. Fighting is not the key in the life of a warrior. But survival is. So many benefits come from taijutsu it would be impossible to list them here. Training taijutsu does not mean training once or twice a week to better yourself. But everyday to 4, 6 times a week.
Boryaku or heiho is the combat strategy the warrior uses to have the skill of shin-shin shin-gan (the mind and eyes of god) the divinely transmitted martial knowledge. This is also covered in your booklet, how to solve a problem, the 4 experiences of life, and factors for a better life. Kyomon (practical education) must be broad enough to provide you with means of understanding how to deal with everyday and special situations. To train in the warrior arts you must use unconventional tactics. These skills are used with the chimon, choho, tenmon, intonjutsu and others to have the out come you are wishing for during life. The heiho is the intertwining connection of the middle way. The bugeisha must possess natural justice in employing his skills. Without this area and the area of seishin teki kyoyo in his training he becomes just another martial artist. Heiho does not mean I will do it tomorrow or next month when it should be done now in the present. If you use the triangle of knowledge, past, present and future, you can better understand this method. Yugei (cultural arts) are important to the warrior. Painting, sewing, playing musical instruments, telling stories and jokes, dancing, and listening are very good skills of dexterity to have in your arsenal.
Tenmon is the skill of meteorology. Understanding the weather and how to use it to his advantage. This skill goes together in the area of chimon. As we get older the weather becomes something else other than it really is. We get to a point where it controls our will. With the use of woodland survival training this changes back to when we were free of this weak condition.
Ningu kenjutsu is the skill of swordsmanship. The warrior trains in the use of the ninja-to (medium sword), katana (long sword), shoto (short sword), tanto (knife), and tachi (large long sword). The skills of battojutsu (fast drawing) and fencing are the primary training methods use today. Use of two swords (nito), sword and knife, sword and short spear are also important for the warrior to train in as a secondary method of swordsmanship. It has been said that the sword is the backbone of the warrior.
Kajutsu (fire) and kayakujutsu (explosives) is the skills of smoke, fire, and explosives. Use of teppo (firearm); pistol, rifle and shotgun, explosives, and uses of effective placement, timing, and rigging are a base skill for today’s warrior. Knowledge of these skills gives the warrior the power to understand the truth of political and society influence on the changing mental state of his community. The presentation of the truth relies on knowledge of false and truth so you can protect the eternal goodness of your life.
Choho is the skill of espionage, reconnaissance or watching. I like to call this the art of observation. The method of how you learn information has a lot to do with what information you learn. Your intentions might be good but your method might fall short of proper choho. To listen is better than to speak at times. And some of us have obtained the skill of talking a great deal and learning from our host. This skill goes together in the area of hensojutsu. The best place to watch is in the mirror. Our weakness must be in our hearts. Watch the eyebrows.
Ningu shuko (hand claws), kunai (shovel), hashigo (ladder), ninyaku (medicines), dokuyaku (poisons), ninyashiki (house defense), naginata (halberd), bisento (large halberd), yumi-ya (bow and arrow), ono (large ax), fukiya (blowgun), toami (net), tessen (iron fan), jutte (iron rod), shinobi zue (hidden cane weapon), handkerchief, sarong, whip, nekode (cat’s claws), sokutoki (blowing tools), and tekkan (iron fist), are all part of the warriors training but fall into a lesser importance than the above training. Still the skills should not be over looked. All training is good training.
The warrior works his world instinctively and consciously with 3 levels of helpers or agents. Most of them never have knowledge they are part of a bigger scheme of someone else’s life. All of these people are healthy, honest, and knowledgeable in a field of use to the warrior. The warrior creates followers from the community around him to support his efforts of enlightenment, friendship, trust, love and happiness. This way he hides his true personal powers from dangerous cult like people looking for a quick fix.
The warrior, a human who has become powerful in every facet of his life, can demonstrate their love to others by giving his ability to protect his family from emotional, financial, political, physical and spiritual harm. In turn the warrior can help others to become warriors so they can also protect themselves from the same kinds of harm. He then becomes the guide, having the ability to protect others and teaching others how to protect themselves. It is important to help humans in the process of learning. Everyone should grow through healthy experiences with each other’s help.
A lot can be said about becoming a warrior. The path takes you away from being comfortable at home watching TV. The wonderful potential of person freedom can be a lonely path. But the pursuit of your discoveries on this path can out weight the harmful actions taken towards you as you walk on. The commitment to personal freedom is life long. The relentless friends, family, and employers can become a living realm of “hell” of unhappiness. Their disease can consume you, not wanting you to become whom you set out to become is a perspective I can not understand or except in this lifetime. Home, loved ones and friends should be our support system on our journey through life. This all can change with your love for yourself becomes noticeable to them. The people around you can become afraid to lose you to yourself. I must do what I feel “right” for me. And it is a tragedy to leave behind the feelings, warmth, smiles, sex, friendship, money and etc. to walk away free within your own heart. Once you put behind you the fear and ego of the symbolic world we live in all the joys and love will come to you each and every day of your life. The enemy never thinks to appear before you as a warrior. It is simple, those who do not wish to be healed will not be healed. So just do it for your self now. Be healed.


ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ninja = the Samurai who ran away ("He who fights and runs away, live to fight another day. He who stands ground bold and brave, digs himself an early grave").

From the short tiger-guy to that Hat-sue-me guy (I guess what they call 'oral tradition')...1 samurai laying under tree, wounded, sees another happy samourai on way to battle. Samurai 1 sez to Samourai 2, "Don't go in there; it's dark" (kinda like Bugs to Gossamer in that cartoon with the little bald mad scientist and the ether). Sam 2 concurs, and the 2 slip off happily ever after, exchanging & combining notes on style and form. 2 seasoned men of warrior caste who grew the smarts to avoid certain death, and pass on the willingness to survive through superior technique, superior training, and most importantly, the idea that it is sometimes better to quit and come back at the whole thing from another perspective then to beat yer head on a wall till it breaks wide open. ("You might tan my hide now and put me in the hospital, but you better make sure you do it right. I know where you live, and you might not wake up." Just watch for squeaky toys placed near windows and stairs...anti-ninja alarm system)

Dr. Dave

(Chinese kempo w/ Taijutsu links...hint, hint)

 

[heretic888]

Well, there have been many "sneaky" or "deceptive" samurai in both Japanese history and mythology. Not all of them are regarded as shinobi no mono (or "ninja"). The story of Prince Yamato Takeru suddenly comes to mind.

It was my understanding that the character shinobi was not used to classify particular groups of people until sometime in the 14th century, and even then it was used explicitly in reference to the Iga-shu and Koga-shu.

Of course, I might be mistaken. :asian:

On a side note, anyone here know if the phrase shinobijutsu was ever actively referenced in historical texts prior to the publishing of such manuals like the Bansenshukai?? Meaning, was the term ever really used in other schools before the ryuha of Iga and Koga gained a modicum of repute??

Laterz all.

 

[loki09789]

Ninja as an operator is only one guy in a network of covert/intell family/regionally political groups. Like any military/operative unit, there was a baseline of skills and specialties. It would be the equivelant, on an individual level of comparison, to conventional soldiers as samurai and the spec ops/espionage types as the ninja. Some were specialists in intelligence, assasination, communication, insurgency.....

I think, to a degree, any political/family group in Japan could have been deemed a "Ninja" family because of the types of tactics and networking that was just business as usual in the day. Today, every major government has Intel operative networks. The difference is in who is runnig the show. Now, it is the central governments of nations. IN the past it was the regional/families recognized by the Emporer/Shogun.. before that, it was still very decentralized, and even more important because of the instability to know what was going on.

 

[heretic888]

It would be the equivelant, on an individual level of comparison, to conventional soldiers as samurai and the spec ops/espionage types as the ninja.

Dunno about that. There were (and are) a lot of 'samurai' koryu that include the arts of stealing-in, sneakiness, and all-around skullduggery. At least to some degree.

Also, if I am not mistaken, most of the members of the Iga-shu and Koga-shu themselves were supposed to be 'samurai', as well.

Not so black and white, neh?? :uhyeah:

I think, to a degree, any political/family group in Japan could have been deemed a "Ninja" family because of the types of tactics and networking that was just business as usual in the day.

Yeah, but as a matter of history, they just plain weren't.

Yamato Takeru is never described as a shinobi in any history book I've come across, nor are any of the umpteenth betrayals, assassinations, or deceptions commited by 'samurai' in these books ever described as acts of shinobijutsu.

It's an interesting take on perception, to say the very least. :asian:

 

[chidarake]

In Japaneese ninja means hard working person. I take Ninjutsu and realize not all ninjas were assassins some were body guards and soo many people see them as the bad guys... but thats not true at all. however most ninja were trained in the art in stealth and camoflage concealment and survival...and many other things as well but a true ninja is one with nature

n.owhere
i.nvisible
n.ature
j.ovial
a.dapt
thats what ninja means to me...

 

[mantis]

There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.

I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...

Historically what WERE the ninja really... and what are they today?

it's easy
they're samurai during the day
and ninja at night
they just have two jobs to support family

 

[heretic888]

So, samurai was a 'job', huh?

 

[Cryozombie]

Sure... in the way that "Ranger" or "Seal" is a job, I suppose. Only... they are mostly born into it, and members for life, and...

no I guess thats a bad example.

 

[heretic888]

Samurai was a rank, a title, a position, a label of social status in feudal Japanese culture. Strictly speaking, all it meant was that you were a vassal ('one who serves') that had pledged fealty to a given individual or individual's family; it didn't necessarily mean you could fight. The clan accountant or historian could have been a samurai with no problem whatsoever.

Not all samurai were warriors, nor were all warriors samurai. This was especially true when referring to the time before the 1580's, when the delineations between social classes was very, very fluid. Oda Nobunaga, for example, was born the son of a farmer. Despite this, he worked his way up the military ladder (beginning his career as a modest ashigaru) and at one time had a pretty good shot at becoming shogun.

The term ninja (or shinobi-no-mono), by contrast, seemed to have had a pretty specific role and set of skills in mind. Perhaps the earliest reference to mention shinobi groups, an Ashikaga document called the Nochi Kagami, states: "Concerning shinobi-no-mono, they are said to be from Iga and Koga and went freely into enemy castles secretly. They saw hidden things and were considered allies. Strategists call them kagimono hiki." In the Bansenshukai, Fujibayashi Yasutake stated: "The elements of nin [or shinobi] are covert [activity], information gathering, disguise, and surveillance." Similarly, in the Shoninki, Natori Masazumi wrote of the ninja: "Ninja: This is the Japanese kanja. [The ninja], always without questioning [the difficulty], operates regardless of whether its day or night. It is similar to nusubito [thief], but the shinobi-no-mono does not still. [The shinobi-no-mono] gathers information even if the place is difficult to reach. Even if there isn't a road, [the shinobi-no-mono] will return with information. This is a specialist of stealth. That is to say, these are the ultimate skills."

And, as a matter of history, most ninja were indeed samurai.

Laterz.

 

[Bigshadow]

Naruto says he is a Ninja....

 

[heretic888]

Naruto says he is a Ninja....

"Believe it!" :lol:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It's not that I have anything specific against Naruto, it's just that I believe it to be Satan's spawn sent here to destroy the planet Earth.