What do you think about this "Master"?

[Ali Rahim]

If you are not connected to the first five disciples, you can not use the term “Master” openly, Yip Man spend more time with them then any students that he had, they all had at least a two year ahead start over everyone and were his closes students even in the mid 50’s through the 60’s, because he didn’t teach group classes, their were taught by the first five… Yip Man made a few appearances but rarely lead the group classes…

Yip Man did have outrageous fees for his private session… Remember his was a head police detective in Foshan and had a certain life style that he enjoyed, just because we look at those picture of this kind old man sitting in a chair, makes us feel or believe that if someone he liked came by he will teach them for free or for very little price. I don’t think so, that’s when the first five came in to play, to keep the pressure off him (Yip Man)…

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

I’m only taking about “Hong Kong” and “Hong Kong” wing chun only, from 1949 on...

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Take for example Sifu Fung, Sifu started teaching in 1979, He taught a number of students before me,

Is this the “Fung” that you are referring too?
http://www.wingchun.com.au/article_excellence.shtml

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

This is real interesting.

http://www.wingchun.com.au/lineage.shtml

 

[monji112000]

First if I may make a respectful request. Could you keep your responses contained to one or two posts? so many posts to scroll it seems very hard to respond or even follow what you are saying.

If you are only talking about HK wing chun thats fine, but Wing Chun didn't start in HK and it didn't end in HK. Its also a known fact that because of the policies of the Chinese Government most Kung Fu Masters immigrated to countries like Taiwan.

If you are not connected to the first five disciples, you can not use the term “Master” openly

thats fine if you want to believe that.

Its common knowledge what Sifu means and the history around the term and idea of Disciples.

Again no formal hierarchy exists and Ip Man himself was never Given the right to teach or be called Sifu. He gave only one person formal permission that I know of. He just started teaching just as all of his students when they feel its time. What title you are called is your own choice. If you don't like the connotations of Master and you want something in English why not teacher? or Mr xyz or Sir or hey you.

Again nobody called him "master" he didn't speak English.

I don't see anywhere else this conversation can go, because its really a very simple subject. (without all the Political BS) Everyone will believe their own linage's propaganda . Everyone was a private student or Disciple, who learned secret things that nobody else knows. Its really sad what people do for the sake of money.

 

[Ali Rahim]

One who speaks of secrets speaks of limitation; I only speak of family lineage, no secretes just history and no politic, it’s nothing political about this…

http://www.wingchun.com.au/lineage.shtml

Ali.

 

[bcbernam777]

Is this the “Fung” that you are referring too?
http://www.wingchun.com.au/article_excellence.shtml

Ali.

No that is Jim Fung who learnt under Choi sheung Ting, my Sifu is Derek fung his chinese name is Fung Ping Boi, he is a first generation who learnt from Yip Man, you will find his lineage on websites that contain the Yip man family tree.

Also his prowess as a fighter was confirmed to me by David Peterson, (whom you may know as Wong Shung Leungs student) when I was in Melbourne 18 months ago, as he was told about Sifu Fung by Wong Shueng Leung himself.

 

[bcbernam777]

Let me make something clear because I can see where this is all going, I believe in the importance of lineage, I believe in the fact that there where genuine students under Yip Man who dedicate4d themesleves to the learning of the art, I believe in the knowledge that they have learnt and passed on as being pure, and as being effective (yes I know pure is a reletive term), I believe that when you learn under a truely skilled fighter under any art you will become (or rather you have the potential) to become a skilled fighter yourself. I have touched hands with people from other wing chun schools at least 2-3 generations removed from Yip Man, and I have yet to find anything that matches Sifu's Wing Chun (and I mean that as pure fact, not as a boast, I just haven't found the same quality elsewhere), which is first generation, I doubt at this stage of my life I could effectivly pass on martial skill (neither do I desire to despite Sifu asking me at one point to start teaching [good students are hard to find]), yet despite all of this if we become so enamoured with lineage we may well miss sight of the woods from looking at the trees. Lineage makes no Iron clad guareentees, it assures a studnet of nothing, it cannot produce a great student, all these factors are for the decision of the student and the teacher.

 

[Ali Rahim]

I’m not talking skill level far as knowledge; I’m not talking fighting ability because all of my student can fight for real at least 90% of them, and most were great fighter before they even met up with me and still are.

I‘m just talking history and family tree, not politics… Hmmmm, “family tree” (titles) “Great Grandfather”, “Grandfather”, “Father”, “Uncle” and “brother”, but only in a martial arts stand point… After all family is family…

But when one is self promoting, then the family tree system which helps keep it real far as who is who in the “Hong Kong” wing chun system becomes a bad ideal for those who lineage does not bring them back to the beginning, when that happens one may say.

Hey everybody, let’s just say “sifu” and throw away the word master, because most will not have that title among themselves. How very sad that is …

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

I wouldn’t abandon my brother because he is weaker then myself, far as skill level, my sons should respect him still as their uncle, and that’s respecting the family tree, which is truly missing in the martial art world today, just from greed alone.

Ali.

 

[graychuan]

I doubt at this stage of my life I could effectivly pass on martial skill (neither do I desire to despite Sifu asking me at one point to start teaching [good students are hard to find]), yet despite all of this if we become so enamoured with lineage we may well miss sight of the woods from looking at the trees. Lineage makes no Iron clad guareentees, it assures a studnet of nothing, it cannot produce a great student, all these factors are for the decision of the student and the teacher.

I just finished following this grand discussion amongst Masters(lol, excuse the pun, not meant to offend anyone in particular. Just considering the subject I thought we could use a little humour to lighten things up.).
With regards to your post, BC, Ive read some of your other posts and i admire your position on a lot of the subjects. You seem to be very competent about wing chun and martial arts in general. You also have a very non-egotistic philosophy about your training and your art. A person like you would do a great benefit to the martial community, especialy wing chun, if you did consider taking on a couple of students. Taking the ego out of your training, teaching, or even just everyday interaction with people in general will give everyone you come in contact with something to learn from you. You are in a position to set a very good and strong 'internal' example of being a martial artist for any students you decide to take on.
That being said. I wholly encourage you to take the advice of your Sifu. You should teach! Teaching gives you even more of an opportunity to let go of ego and be there for the two most important reasons...the art(which has been here long before us and will be here when we are gone) and for the student( who is the reason why the art will remain after we are gone). Let us not forget that master,sifu,sensei, big brother almighty...whatever title you choose...what do the masters do? THEY TEACH. This does not mean that they take on large school projects with 200 students and all that. It could mean that they only take on 1-3 students that they can devote real time into developing real skills and to plant the seed of the art for the next generation and maybe make a little scratch on the side to pay the bills or support any personal habits (sound familliar?).
All in all I look forward to hearing from you more in the future and this forum. Whatever path you choose, good luck!

4th dan in Shaolin Kempo Karate, student of SIFU Ali Rahim,

GrayChuan


P.S. We could all just meet up and knuckle up. Whomever is left standing gets the tiltle. Or we could all fight over the title 'headband' like in 'AFRO SAMURAI' on Spike TV. (roflmao)

 

[Ali Rahim]

That being said. I wholly encourage you to take the advice of your Sifu. You should teach! Teaching gives you even more of an opportunity to let go of ego and be there for the two most important reasons...the art(which has been here long before us and will be here when we are gone) and for the student( who is the reason why the art will remain after we are gone). Let us not forget that master,sifu,sensei, big brother almighty...whatever title you choose...what do the masters do? THEY TEACH. This does not mean that they take on large school projects with 200 students and all that. It could mean that they only take on 1-3 students that they can devote real time into developing real skills and to plant the seed of the art for the next generation and maybe make a little scratch on the side to pay the bills or support any personal habits (sound familliar?).

That only makes since to teach when asked… I truly agree, when you start to teach you move self out of the way, trying to make your student just as good as yourself or even better… Bringing truth to the saying, that “your student is you best teacher”.

Ali.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!

I love teaching!

I am videoing almost all my classes so I can learn from that which I teach... sometimes I teach stuff that I didn't know I knew even though at the time I knew what I know I was gonna teach. Hehe.

Knowing that, I record the trainings, and when I see them again, I gain new insight, I better myself and better my students.

Yet I know this is not for everyone, so I feel there is no obligation to teach, even though it is very useful. My task is to give them the opportunity to teach and my encouragement. Also, teaching classes is not the only way to give back the Combat Sciences.

Writing, as in these forums or articles, etc. is a good way to give back to the Sciences.

That said, I want to thank all those that post here for their contributions. Very stimulating and enlightening.

Apreciatively,

Si Fu Juan M. Mercado

P.S. On the subject of "Master", it's a title of respect that is usually given by the students... they just call you that for some reason.

Here most call me "Profesor" or "Profe". Others call me "Maestro". I didn't tell them. They just did.

Yet in the family tree, to them I am Si Fu. That's it. When they make their own martial family, to THEIR students, I'll be Si Gung. That's it.

 

[Changhfy]

Hey Ali laoshi,

I have to respectfully disagree with your post about the 5 masters under Ip Man.

Due to the fact it would be hard to prove that any of Ip Man's students were titled as Masters.

Because Ip Man himself never claimed to be a Grandmaster or a Master at all. (so it would be hard to claim that his students are now Master or Grandmasters based on the Ip Man legacy)

Dont get me wrong the term based on mastery of skill is truly theres for the taking. (but to have the claim as Master of Wing Chun doesnt seem logical)

I hope you forgive me if this post seems disrespectful in anyway. (as im only stating my point of view, and its not meant to take away anything that youve earned or obtained.) As Ive always had tremendous respect for Ali laoshi and the rest of the Leung Sheum family.

I wish you the best!


take care,
Zach

 

[Ali Rahim]

I will only believe that if Yip Man himself wrote it in a document (We don't know what Yip Man heard or said, but have documents of some of the disciples and others)and that will deter me from believing the fact that his 1st 4 known disciples recognizes him as “Master” or Grand Master when introducing him to others or the public; as such, in seminar and instructional footage and still recognizes him as “Master” today.

Why would “Yip Man” allow this to continue? And if Yip Man didn’t hear them call him that, then should we respect the first 5 disciples word as the Hong Kong family tree concurs as true history? Or should we believe that they and others are no telling the truth when it comes to the Hong Kong Yip Man’s wing chun system and history? Or should we not believe in the discipleship of the 1st 5 students of Yip Man, as shown in most wing chun family trees of Yip Man from generation to generation as truth?


Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Why are all the other “Masters” or “Disciples” of the wing chun family tree are recognized as such, from "Yim Yee Tai" on down… But when it comes to Yip Man on down his disciples are excuses as such.

Know that’s politics!!!

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

It’s seem to me that most do believe that Yip Man himself didn’t or couldn’t produces any students that could carry on the wing chun family tree or history as recorded from generation to generation even before Yip Man as truth. Well it seems that it all stops at the feet of Yip Man, and his “Hong Kong” wing chun family could not exist…

Ali.

 

[Changhfy]

Hey Ali laoshi,

Thanks for the reply, I hope all is well with you and your to dai.

And also Ive really enjoyed the vid's that you have been posting on you tube.

Keep up the awesome work!

Back to the topic, In order for Ip Man himself to be the Grandmaster he would have to of been awarded the title of Buen Juyn.

In which case there is no evidence to indicate that he was and never admitted himself to be the buen jyun, If he were the Buen Jyun then it would make logical since that he would have made a successor.

If he were given the title of Grandmaster then he would have to of chosen the next Buen Jyun. (in which case he never did)

Dont get me wrong everyone and their cousin would never dispute that any of the 5 disciples that you mentioned are masters in their own right.

But based on tradition, none of them are able to claim such a title as Grandmaster or Buen Jyun.

Generally speaking the Buen Jyun would generally be the gate keeper and have some type of record of his status, such as a book, paper or some other form of record indicating that they are the Grandmaster.

In which case Ip Man himself is known to have none of these.

Again I could be mistaken, so I hope you can forgive me if my information is wrong.

Besides that, I would definitely say that Ip Man himself was more than capable of producing students. (in which case im glad he did or I most likely would have never found Wing Chun)

Again what im saying isnt disputing their skill, which I can only imagine is phenomenol. And is truly diserving of the title of Grandmaster in realms of skill and teaching ability.

But in alot of Chinese systems only the Buen Jyun can bai si (pai sze) the to dai.


Anyways I wish you the best.


take care,
Zach

 

[Ali Rahim]

In that case, we did not hear of any leaders or elders of the wing chun family tree make that clam (title of Buen Juyn)… Does that mean that the whole wing chun family tree should not exist, based on what we may not know of, or what one might have said or heard… Or are there simply no master within the wing chun system?

If that is the case then that will put all of the elders, master and disciples into the point of double jeopardy, and the history of wing chun as well as the Hong Kong Wing chun history to… And if that was the case, what would give Yip Man the right and authority to teach within the origins of the original wing chun family tree? Then why would Yip Man teach his 1st five for two years before opening his group classes that only his 1st five taught?

And it would be hard to believe that this system is without masters… Only those who can’t make a direct link to Yip Man or his 1st five disciples makes such clams… This is mostly coming from or out of Asia or Hong Kong, killing history to make themselves even more on scale with others (far as history), making Yip Man’s history false while making their history or self promotion strong.

Ali.

 

[Gufbal1982]

My sentiments precisely. I don't personally see any Wing Chun in the demo, except the kicks perhaps at the end which are recognisable as Wing Chun techniques, but not executed "well". The fact that these two blokes proclaim themselves as Master really suprised me!

Now this bloke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N4Iyl-Efx4&mode=related&search= you can see his Wing Chun. yes it's a demo, yes it's a bit pre-prescribed, but it's sharp and the techniques are clearly demonstrated. What do you think?

I like that one better than the original link on this thread. I don't know Wing chun, but from a prospective student perspective, I will just say that I would go with the 2nd person's link over the first. It's more appealing!