What age do you stop sparring?

[mastercole]

When it comes to self defense, size and strength matters----------------------to the un-experienced person.

The more experienced one becomes in the training methods of full contact sparring, the less size and strength matter. Actually, if one continues to train hard for a long period of time, it gets to the point where it does not matter at all.

Sure a quick eye poke, or attempt to strike the throat might work, but it's a roll of the dice. Personally, I always wanted better odds. What happens when that large, powerful brute decides to start landing punches on the un-experienced persons face? Is that un-experienced person going to suddenly find the skills to evade, absorb, and counter the full contact blows? Blows they have NEVER trained to deal with? I don't think so. All the scenerios, kata bunkai, etc are going to go down the tubes with that first hard bone jarring hit.

 

[StudentCarl]

... If we're going to teach non-huge, non-naturally intimidating practitioners who are not unusually athletically gifted--you know, ordinary men, women, and children whose reasons for studying Taekwondo include self-defense in the real world--how to defend themselves, I don't see it as being possible only through full-contact sparring, as important as that experience is, for exactly the reasons you describe that relate to size mismatch. ...Surely other approaches to teaching self-defense are also urgently needed. So, how do we do this effectively in the Taekwondo dojang?

Cynthia

I'm a relatively junior (in TKD) guy in a fairly small city in Michigan, so take this with a cup of salt. I think each master must focus his/her own school as he/she sees fit, but at the school I attend most people are looking for a blend of exercise and confidence (which includes some level of self-defense skills), though we have a fair sized competition team primarily focused on Olympic style sparring. Our focus with the newer student is fitness and coordination improvement through learning Taekwondo. At the lower levels, our focus on self-defense is technical (response to specific attacks) with some teaching of self-control and avoidance. Two good approaches, if you want to take the next step, would be 1) holding a one-day weekend seminar to gauge interest and refine curriculum, or 2) do some simple scenario training in select classes where you have these students. I think that the best defense-oriented teaching is principle-focused rather than technique focused. And like good TKD classes, it's more participation than observation. Being a relatively smaller woman, I think you have half of the team needed to develop and teach this, the other half being a large, skilled-with-control man. I suggest that you find such a partner and then work to test techniques and tactics. Your seniors will likely be a great help with this. You and your partner need to define and refine a curriculum targeted to mismatch situations where the larger person is the aggressor. You can test bits of it in #2 above, and when you're ready, do #1 and put on a seminar. Although I grouped kids and women in an earlier comment, the program for each would need to be different. If you don't have access to them, you may need some additional equipment including helmets with face shields, neck protection, and/or a Red Man suit (full padded armor).

Going back to your comment above: 1) one of the criteria for techniques and tactics you teach is that they need to be simple and useful to the unathletic/ordinary person. Again, if you focus on movement and targeting, this is possible (though both improve with regular TKD class training). 2) full contact sparring is valuable for developing ability to move, perform under stress, and take a hard shot. Depending on how far you go with this training, you should consider how to address these. It is important to be realistic with those who want to do minimal training that it will have less practical value than training that has pressure-testing. In the school I attend, we work to develop skill first with size-matched partners before mixing it up and adding the mismatch issue. The women who raise the above issue, we usually work with individually and take them as far as they want to go.

Please share if you take this further.

Carl

 

[StudentCarl]

When it comes to self defense, size and strength matters----------------------to the un-experienced person.

The more experienced one becomes in the training methods of full contact sparring, the less size and strength matter. Actually, if one continues to train hard for a long period of time, it gets to the point where it does not matter at all.

Sure a quick eye poke, or attempt to strike the throat might work, but it's a roll of the dice. Personally, I always wanted better odds. What happens when that large, powerful brute decides to start landing punches on the un-experienced persons face? Is that un-experienced person going to suddenly find the skills to evade, absorb, and counter the full contact blows? Blows they have NEVER trained to deal with? I don't think so. All the scenerios, kata bunkai, etc are going to go down the tubes with that first hard bone jarring hit.

With respect, any technique is a roll of the dice because there is a counter to it. I completely agree that realism in training includes building up to full contact and full speed. Those who want a quick fix are counting on luck to make up for lack of training. I think we need to be honest with students about that, but I do understand Cynthia's question about training for size mismatches with students who aren't interested in regular full-contact training. What do you tell those smaller women who ask for help with this?

Carl

 

[mastercole]

If we're going to teach non-huge, non-naturally intimidating practitioners who are not unusually athletically gifted--you know, ordinary men, women, and children whose reasons for studying Taekwondo include self-defense in the real world--how to defend themselves, I don't see it as being possible only through full-contact sparring, as important as that experience is, for exactly the reasons you describe that relate to size mismatch. Some of you may walk around with little fear of being perceived as a target simply because you are male and large. Those of us who are petite women live in a completely different world because inherent characterstics that we cannot change result in others seeing us as potential victims: we are shorter with less muscle mass--often substantially so--and we live in a societies whose institutions and individual members often, though not always, devalue us solely based on our gender. We are simply not likely to end a fight with a single punch after getting swung at by a hay maker. Our attacker is going to stalk us, lay in wait for us, or--worse yet--be in a close relationship with us. As a mental health care provider, I know that the statistics on violence against women, including sexual assault, are horrifying and I have seen the devastating impact that such violence has on the lives of individual women as well as their families (take a look at http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims for just a glimpse into this social disaster). I am 100% sure, that as useful as the lessons of full-contact sparring are for all of the excellent reasons put forth in this thread, they are not enough for women or anyone else with a significant size mismatch. Add aging, injury, or disability to the mix and full-contact sparring may not even be an option. Surely other approaches to teaching self-defense are also urgently needed. So, how do we do this effectively in the Taekwondo dojang?

Cynthia

It is rare today to find the student, or parent that cares anything about self defense, especially those signing up for martial arts lessons. That is not the reason people join martial arts today.

But for someone looking for the self defense value in martial arts, for all of the reasons you stated above, that is why it is important to study deeply:

- what it takes to punch, kick, strike at your maximum potential power, and be able to apply it under the threat of full contact
- to perfect your timing and distance skills and be able to apply it under the threat of full contact
- to perfect your ability to evade and roll with the "punches", and be able to apply it under the threat of full contact
- to develop a ferocious will power and be able to apply it under the threat of full contact
- to learn the key principles behind these skills sets
- have plan "B". like mace, knife, gun, etc (following the laws of your area)

A well trained person in these key principles can be 5"1 100 lbs and knockout a 250 lbs man. The same well trained person has a much better chance of quickly gouging the eyes of a larger man and follow up with strikes that can disable him allowing for escape.

Once we understand these principles, we will understand physical self defense. People who fail to grasp these principles will forever fantasize about scenarios, plans, meaning of forms, etc in an attempt to solve this problem. And that is a huge waste of time. People have to bite the bullet, face the truth and get down to the real business of physical self defense and stop avoiding it and trying to search out comforting answers.

Today there is an over abundance of some well meaning individuals, and a lot of snake-oil salesman that are playing on this market of folks looking for the "easy" answer to physical self defense because few people today want to really dig deep into the hard, cold truth of the self defense matter.

It's the same with carrying a gun when a person feels in danger. They hear all these pro's and con's to conceal carry, even when they have a stalker with a restraining order and has made previous assaults against the person, so some people are conflicted and can not seem to adapt their so-called principle to their current dire circumstance. Maybe the police will protect me?... yeah, think again, it happens time and time again, the police show up to photograph the mess.

We have to quit kidding ourselves about self defense. If we are martial arts instructors who attempt to teach anything about self defense, we need to take a long hard look at our actual real world self defense experience before doing so. If we find that we do not have A LOT of real world experience, the I believe we have no business attempting to teach self defense to anyone. However, as instructors, leaders of our school, if we want self defense, we can always hire a qualified person to help with that.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

There was a good thread recently in the 'general' section regarding whether you have to have been in 'real' fights to teach self defence. I personally dont think you have to. My first instructor, by his own admission, has never been in a fight in his life, yet Im as sure as I can be that he is one guy you really wouldnt want to mess with. It is a matter of personal opinon though.

 

[mastercole]

With respect, any technique is a roll of the dice because there is a counter to it.

If a person has little or no full contact training experience, the the odds are highly against then when they roll those dice. If they are highly trained and experienced in the full contact training methods, then the odds are more in their favor. Big difference.

I completely agree that realism in training includes building up to full contact and full speed. Those who want a quick fix are counting on luck to make up for lack of training. I think we need to be honest with students about that,

I agree, I am brutally honest with my students, and my juniors about this subject. There is no quick fix. Even if you decide to carry a gun, there is a lot of training, mental and moral consideration that goes with that as well.

but I do understand Cynthia's question about training for size mismatches with students who aren't interested in regular full-contact training. What do you tell those smaller women who ask for help with this?

Carl

I tell them if they are concerned about self defense and REALLY want to improve the physical self defense skills, they MUST participate in the learning of full contact fighting principles. I tell them that if they learn the principles of full contact fighting **which is what they will encounter in an attack ** the issue of size and strength will be reduced, if not eliminated.

That may mean taking their focus completely away from forms, breaking, arm grabs, etc. and applying it fully to physical combat methods. I also find that almost no one wants to hear that and 99 out of 100 would likely quit, or go somewhere else when told that.

Of course as a martial arts business owner, you can always insert "but, I can show you 10 ways to get out of a choke and hair pull" to get them to write that check out

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think you are dead right about full contact stuff. If your training doesnt involve a good degree of full contact against resisting opponents then it probably doesnt go a long way toward self defence. We have a training camp once or twice a year on the beach and I remember one year after we finished a session a few of the 6th and 7th dans remained on the bech doing some training so I sat back and watched. They would put one guy in the middle of a circle and one at a time the others would attack. They would attack full speed, full power and would not tell the defender what they were going to do. It may be a kick, a punch, a tackle, they could even kick or throw sand in their face, basically anything goes. It was amazing to watch guys at this level just react instantly and defend full speed against a mystery attack. Most defences were hapkido/aikido style defence followed by strikes. I honestly thought it was as close as you will get to defending yourself for real because it combined the unpredictability of a real situation with full contact. If nothing else, it was great to sit back on a sand dune, have a beer and watch it all happen.

 

[lifespantkd]

Thank you very much, Ralph and Al, for your insights. This has been a really useful thread for me. I've learned a great deal from all of your comments.

Cynthia

 

[SPX]

When it comes to self defense, size and strength matters----------------------to the un-experienced person.

The more experienced one becomes in the training methods of full contact sparring, the less size and strength matter. Actually, if one continues to train hard for a long period of time, it gets to the point where it does not matter at all.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. If size doesn't matter to the experience person, then why are weight-classes necessary in combat sports?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. If size doesn't matter to the experience person, then why are weight-classes necessary in combat sports?

Probably because in combat sports, both competitiors are highly skilled and trained in the same thing and fighting under the exact same rulest, therefore size becomes a huge variable. When two guys go toe to toe on the street its very different, theres no rules and quite possibly the big guy has no training whatsoever and the little guy is 5th dan holding a baseball bat.

 

[SPX]

I tip the scales at just over 150 lbs, and if I was in optimal shape, would probably be more like 140.

I don't care what kind of martial arts training I have, I don't want to go toe to toe with some 6'2, 240 lb linebacker guy. It would be difficult to put him down without hitting a vital area and any one of his haymakers could easily put my lights out. After that, I'm at his mercy and he can stomp my head in or whatever he wants to do.

I would definitely not say that size is nullified by expertise if the gap is big enough.

 

[mastercole]

Probably because in combat sports, both competitiors are highly skilled and trained in the same thing and fighting under the exact same rulest, therefore size becomes a huge variable. When two guys go toe to toe on the street its very different, theres no rules and quite possibly the big guy has no training whatsoever and the little guy is 5th dan holding a baseball bat.

Right. Also, studies of energy generated at the point of impact show that generally, when elite male players are studied, Bantam - Feather - Light weights hit the hardest. Even with trained fighters I have seen a much lighter weight guy tear a heavy weight apart, just because the lighter guy is quicker with everything. But I have also, rarely, seen heavy weights that move like fly weights, and that is scary.........

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I tip the scales at just over 150 lbs, and if I was in optimal shape, would probably be more like 140.

I don't care what kind of martial arts training I have, I don't want to go toe to toe with some 6'2, 240 lb linebacker guy. It would be difficult to put him down without hitting a vital area and any one of his haymakers could easily put my lights out. After that, I'm at his mercy and he can stomp my head in or whatever he wants to do.

I would definitely not say that size is nullified by expertise if the gap is big enough.

If you get some huge guy, 6 foot 2inches, rippled with muscles but no fight training at all and he starts a fight in a pub with georges st pierre, I will bet my house and everything in it that st pierre would tear him apart. Plus, if Ive learned one thing in martial arts its that generally the bigger someone is the slower they are and speed means a hell of a lot in a fight. Size is good, but my money is on the little guy with a tonne of fighting skills anyday of the week. In my opinion, size is way over rated.

 

[SPX]

If you get some huge guy, 6 foot 2inches, rippled with muscles but no fight training at all and he starts a fight in a pub with georges st pierre, I will bet my house and everything in it that st pierre would tear him apart. Size is good, but my money is on the little guy with a tonne of fighting skills anyday of the week. In my opinion, size is way over rated.

Well GSP is 5'10" and is known to walk around between 190 and 200, so he's not in any way a small guy. He may not be a huge guy, but he's pretty big. In general, I think that when you get to welterweight and up, it's a different ballgame.

But what about Urijah Faber? Most who have met him say he's about 5'4" (even though he's billed at 5'6") and about 150 lbs. in between fights. I think he would have a very hard time with a 240 lb athletic individual (like a football player), even if that guy had no fight training. A small body can only generate so much power and can only absorb so much force. By contrast, a large, muscular person can generate a great deal of power and can absorb a great deal more force. So the smaller guy is definitely facing an uphill battle from the start, especially when you think that his punches are like .22 caliber bullets, while the bigger guy's are like .45s. This also is not even to mention what is perhaps a more pertinent point, that most martial artists are part timers who train an average of 3 times a week and are quite far from either GSP or Urijah Faber, who are among the very best fighters in the entire world.

Being a small person, trust me, I very much want to learn how to compensate for my lack of height and size. And I'm sure that I can learn to do that to a significant degree. But I'm not under the illusion that karate or taekwondo is going to make me invincible.

 

[SPX]

Right. Also, studies of energy generated at the point of impact show that generally, when elite male players are studied, Bantam - Feather - Light weights hit the hardest. Even with trained fighters I have seen a much lighter weight guy tear a heavy weight apart, just because the lighter guy is quicker with everything. But I have also, rarely, seen heavy weights that move like fly weights, and that is scary.........

That sounds like an interesting study, but we both know that Frankie Edgar doesn't want to get into a kickboxing match with Alistair Overeem.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well GSP is 5'10" and is known to walk around between 190 and 200, so he's not in any way a small guy. He may not be a huge guy, but he's pretty big. In general, I think that when you get to welterweight and up, it's a different ballgame.

But what about Urijah Faber? Most who have met him say he's about 5'4" (even though he's billed at 5'6") and about 150 lbs. in between fights. I think he would have a very hard time with a 240 lb athletic individual (like a football player), even if that guy had no fight training. A small body can only generate so much power and can only absorb so much force. By contrast, a large, muscular person can generate a great deal of power and can absorb a great deal more force. So the smaller guy is definitely facing an uphill battle from the start, especially when you think that his punches are like .22 caliber bullets, while the bigger guy's are like .45s. This also is not even to mention what is perhaps a more pertinent point, that most martial artists are part timers who train an average of 3 times a week and are quite far from either GSP or Urijah Faber, who are among the very best fighters in the entire world.

Being a small person, trust me, I very much want to learn how to compensate for my lack of height and size. And I'm sure that I can learn to do that to a significant degree. But I'm not under the illusion that karate or taekwondo is going to make me invincible.

Its funny you mention football players. Over here in australia rugby league is one type of football that is popular and is generally regarded as the toughest, most physical game on earth (state of origin for example). The guys who play league are huge, muscular and tough as nails. You get a lot of brawls in league (not as much these days) and it always highlights that there is a big difference between being big and being able to fight. Many boxers have played the game and its always funny to see a big guy get put on his *** very quickly by a little guy who actually knows how to fight, billy johnstone comes to mind. I was in town one night and a big pro league player was mouthing off and causing quite a scene, the guy was huge and eventually a small guy (5 ft 5 and about 60-70 kilos) asked him to tone it down which only escalated things. Eventully it came to blows and to the enjoyment of everyone in the club the little guy just floored him and knocked him out cold. The funny thing was that no one went to the big guys aid and people were literally walking over his unconscience body to get to the bar. Turned out the little guy was a muay thai fighter. Difference was, one was big , the other could fight. Being big helps, but it will only get you so far, fighting is a science.

 

[SPX]

I like that story. Since I'm small, I like to think that I can train hard and develop skills that are an equalizer.

I guess I still have a memory in my head of when a friend of mine (who's about 360 pounds) hit me with a relatively light punch. He wasn't trying to hurt me or knock me out, I just told him to hit me with a moderate punch to see what it would feel like. I didn't go unconscious, but my world definitely went black for a second and I was dazed. If he had hit me full power then I definitely would've been out cold.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I like that story. Since I'm small, I like to think that I can train hard and develop skills that are an equalizer.

I guess I still have a memory in my head of when a friend of mine (who's about 360 pounds) hit me with a relatively light punch. He wasn't trying to hurt me or knock me out, I just told him to hit me with a moderate punch to see what it would feel like. I didn't go unconscious, but my world definitely went black for a second and I was dazed. If he had hit me full power then I definitely would've been out cold.

I can relate. I have some big mates who could knock me senseless even with a punch at about 50% capacity. I'd like to think though, that I wouldnt just stand in front of someone like that and give them an easy target if it was for real. The thing is, they still have to catch you. As a mate used to say to me "big guys still have knees", referring to the fact that even a poorly timed, untrained kick to someone's knee will still usually result in a full knee reconstruction

 

[puunui]

But I have also, rarely, seen heavy weights that move like fly weights, and that is scary.........

Masters KIM Je Kyung and Jimmy Kim come to mind, both Olympic gold medalists.

 

[mastercole]

Being a small person, trust me, I very much want to learn how to compensate for my lack of height and size. And I'm sure that I can learn to do that to a significant degree. But I'm not under the illusion that karate or taekwondo is going to make me invincible.

Nothing will make you invincible, except maybe genius. However, you can learn to maximize your abilities beyond what people normally think is possible.